AEP considers burying lines

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Buried lines do not equal no power loss.  I've been without power three times in the last two weeks and all of us have buried lines around here.

Burying the lines in a neighborhood without burying the feeder lines that supply them shouldnt count as "buried lines".
Look at the feeders that run along Lewis ave south of 21st street (that's only inches from the curb) to see how vulnerable they are.

A single car accident can take out 15,000 customers.  Something very negligent about operating with that degree of "reliability".

[Steve]

I have a big question for AEP on this subject.

During the Dec. 2007 ice storm, one of the few Tulsa neighborhoods that sustained the least outage damage was the Leisure Lanes subdivision between 69th E. Ave/71st E. Ave and 15th/21st Street in Tulsa.  My neice lives in this neighborhood and I went over there often to take refuge.  They never lost power.  Yet, in January 2008, PSO commenced to bury all the power lines in this neighborhood.  Just plain crazy.  Why did they bury the lines in Leisure Lanes, when so many other areas experience more frequent outages?

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

How about we increase it a dollar immediately like people responded and get to work instead of just raising it a quarter and easing into it?

I have electric service to a building without living quarters. PSO calls that commercial.  The land lease prohibits commercial use. Last year my rate for no electricity use (zero kilowatt hours) went from about $18/mo to $32/mo.  I don't believe PSO when they say "small" increase.

[mrB]

quote:Originally posted by Steve

I have a big question for AEP on this subject.

During the Dec. 2007 ice storm, one of the few Tulsa neighborhoods that sustained the least outage damage was the Leisure Lanes subdivision between 69th E. Ave/71st E. Ave and 15th/21st Street in Tulsa.  My neice lives in this neighborhood and I went over there often to take refuge.  They never lost power.  Yet, in January 2008, PSO commenced to bury all the power lines in this neighborhood.  Just plain crazy.  Why did they bury the lines in Leisure Lanes, when so many other areas experience more frequent outages?

Leisure Lanes & Moeller Heights [1 block immediately east] neighborhoods were already scheduled for conversion. And although Leisure Lanes had power in Dec07 ice storm, Moeller Heights did not. My in-law's power was out for two weeks in Dec07. It was out again this last weekend. It has been out several times and usually with the slightest of winds. I'm glad it's being buried in that neighborhood.

Sure the green boxes look bad, but minimal landscaping can make them less obtrusive. I know of someone in Ranch Acres [recently converted/buried] who requested PSO pay for the landscaping. PSO balked at the estimated price to hide the box, but ultimately paid for it in full.

Here are some links with their answers to WHY & WHO

PSO Underground conversions
[http://www.psoklahoma.com/news/underground/]

PSO FAQ about overhead to underground projects
[http://www.psoklahoma.com/news/underground/docs/OHtoUGGenericQAAug07.pdf]

[Steve]

quote:Originally posted by mrB

quote:Originally posted by Steve

I have a big question for AEP on this subject.

During the Dec. 2007 ice storm, one of the few Tulsa neighborhoods that sustained the least outage damage was the Leisure Lanes subdivision between 69th E. Ave/71st E. Ave and 15th/21st Street in Tulsa.  My neice lives in this neighborhood and I went over there often to take refuge.  They never lost power.  Yet, in January 2008, PSO commenced to bury all the power lines in this neighborhood.  Just plain crazy.  Why did they bury the lines in Leisure Lanes, when so many other areas experience more frequent outages?

Leisure Lanes & Moeller Heights [1 block immediately east] neighborhoods were already scheduled for conversion. And although Leisure Lanes had power in Dec07 ice storm, Moeller Heights did not. My in-law's power was out for two weeks in Dec07. It was out again this last weekend. It has been out several times and usually with the slightest of winds. I'm glad it's being buried in that neighborhood.

I am very familiar with the Leisure Lanes/Moeller Heights area as I grew up there in the 1960s and my parents built one of the first homes on 20th Street at 69th E Ave in 1960.  My point is why is PSO burying the lines in these neighborhoods when so many older areas of Tulsa have much more frequent outages and a much higher priority for buried power lines?  The priorities don't make any sense.

[mrB]

quote:Originally posted by Steve

quote:Originally posted by mrB

quote:Originally posted by Steve

I have a big question for AEP on this subject.

During the Dec. 2007 ice storm, one of the few Tulsa neighborhoods that sustained the least outage damage was the Leisure Lanes subdivision between 69th E. Ave/71st E. Ave and 15th/21st Street in Tulsa.  My neice lives in this neighborhood and I went over there often to take refuge.  They never lost power.  Yet, in January 2008, PSO commenced to bury all the power lines in this neighborhood.  Just plain crazy.  Why did they bury the lines in Leisure Lanes, when so many other areas experience more frequent outages?

Leisure Lanes & Moeller Heights [1 block immediately east] neighborhoods were already scheduled for conversion. And although Leisure Lanes had power in Dec07 ice storm, Moeller Heights did not. My in-law's power was out for two weeks in Dec07. It was out again this last weekend. It has been out several times and usually with the slightest of winds. I'm glad it's being buried in that neighborhood.

I am very familiar with the Leisure Lanes/Moeller Heights area as I grew up there in the 1960s and my parents built one of the first homes on 20th Street at 69th E Ave in 1960.  My point is why is PSO burying the lines in these neighborhoods when so many older areas of Tulsa have much more frequent outages and a much higher priority for buried power lines?  The priorities don't make any sense.

I agree with you! It does seem like other areas would be higher priorities. I'm sure anybody that went more than four days in Dec07 felt like they should be a priority.

Did PSO talk with your neice's neighborhood before starting the project? Maybe they met less resistance than in places like Maple Ridge?

I feel for anybody [you said you sought refuge] that had to endure the power outage Dec07. We were able to have our in-law stay with us. I was very lucky with an outage of only 24hrs due to buried lines in my neighborhood. But went through it in the '80s.

My real guess about selection criteria would be direct costs to complete the project dictate who gets converted.

FROM = FAQ about overhead to underground projects http://www.psoklahoma.com/news/underground/docs/OHtoUGGenericQAAug07.pdf

What are the criteria for selecting neighborhoods to convert from overhead
distribution service to underground?
Selection criteria for conversion, include:
• Inaccessibility of electric facilities for maintenance and repair,
• Age of the PSO facilities,
• Electric service reliability problems that are increasing but have not yet reached a
level where immediate relief is needed through the much quicker method of tree
removal and tree trimming,
• Terrain conducive to the installation of an underground utility system (for example,
an acceptable level of rockiness in the soil).

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by patric

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Buried lines do not equal no power loss.  I've been without power three times in the last two weeks and all of us have buried lines around here.

Burying the lines in a neighborhood without burying the feeder lines that supply them shouldnt count as "buried lines".
Look at the feeders that run along Lewis ave south of 21st street (that's only inches from the curb) to see how vulnerable they are.

A single car accident can take out 15,000 customers.  Something very negligent about operating with that degree of "reliability".

On one of the local news programs, PSO says buried lines allow them to get more customers back on line faster.  When the fix the feeder, everyone on that feeder gets power back.

[jne]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Buried lines do not equal no power loss.  I've been without power three times in the last two weeks and all of us have buried lines around here.

Well, this was the third time this year that we've collected at a buddy's place who maintained power.(If they do lose power, it  is always a very short down time)  I don't think its any coincidence that the lines are buried in their neighborhood.  Every time our power goes out, we grab a bottle of wine and some good beer and head over there to find 5 or 6 other mid-town friends of ours who don't have power.  However, we did have to spend a lot of time at home this round because of concern for our pets in the extreme heat.

Just got our power back at about 3:30 yesterday!

This time I spent a little time driving around our friends neighborhood to check out the infamous green box.  The funny thing is that I never found a single box while driving around the neighborhood and our friends didn't know of any.  Maybe they are in backyards there?

[sgrizzle]

If a neighborhood never had overhead ilines, their boxes may be in the back. If they are being converted, AEP can't get their digging equipment, cable spools, transformers, concrete, etc in the back yard due to fences, sheds, pool, etc. It is cheaper and easier to buy a new easement in the front.

[cannon_fodder]

Underground lines prevent power loss in the neighborhood to the extent that localized line damage causes the neighborhood to lose power.  My area (and JNE) lose power because of small lines effecting individual blocks.  As is often the case.

If these lines were underground the loss of power would be limited to feeder lines.  Basically, there would be less lines that have to be fixed to get power back.  Put the feeder lines underground and only larger transmission lines would be an issue... and so on.

Of course there are SOME problems with underground lines, but 95% of our power failures are due to find or ice.  Which does not effect underground cables.

[jackbristow]

quote:Originally posted by mrB
Sure the green boxes look bad, but minimal landscaping can make them less obtrusive. I know of someone in Ranch Acres [recently converted/buried] who requested PSO pay for the landscaping. PSO balked at the estimated price to hide the box, but ultimately paid for it in full.

I tend to think that the green boxes look a lot better than power lines running all over the place.  The view of the sky, trees, sunsets, etc. is so much better without looking at utility poles and power lines!

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by jackbristow

quote:Originally posted by mrB
Sure the green boxes look bad, but minimal landscaping can make them less obtrusive. I know of someone in Ranch Acres [recently converted/buried] who requested PSO pay for the landscaping. PSO balked at the estimated price to hide the box, but ultimately paid for it in full.

I tend to think that the green boxes look a lot better than power lines running all over the place.  The view of the sky, trees, sunsets, etc. is so much better without looking at utility poles and power lines!

no joke.
i spent a considerable portion of my childhood in Edmond and we had a 'ugly green box' in the front of the house, on the easement between our driveway and the neighbors...bfd.

if the reason is try to preserve the 'beauty' of Peoria, say between 51st and 41st....seriously?
have you looked down any major street in Tulsa?  Its a mess.  A tangle of poles, different set-backs & heights of signs, ridiculous signs (giant panda buffet signs, giant teeth) on and on...  

There is a reason why several streets (Sheridan) in Tulsa are thought of as the ugliest in America.

[patric]

The Corporation Commission released part of their report on the ice storm response by electric utilities Wednesday...

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?subjectID=11&articleID=20080605_49_A11_spancl720940

'The report contends, however, that burying all electric infrastructure would be too expensive and is simply not possible.

The price to bury all transmission lines in the state would run $27 billion and have a potential impact of $270 per month on customer bills.

Instead, the report recommends a more measured response that includes burying new transmission lines and burying power lines when it is requested by a majority of neighborhood residents. It also calls for burying some distribution lines when the wire is replaced as part of regular maintenance.'

If they are using costs supplied to them by AEP (the grossly over-estimated ones they've been using to scare people away from undergrounding) then it's no surprise that it's "too expensive".

At the very least, PSO should be using undergrounding for all new construction, but they continue to set new poles to this date -- new poles that they will argue will be to expensive to bury later.

You get the impression the Corporation Commission doesnt really work for us...

[Ttowndad]

I agree.  We were without power long enough during the ice storm to make me a huge proponent of burying them all.  We live in midtown and about every time the wind kicks up past 25mph or so we lose power.  I say let's get on with it!

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

How about we increase it a dollar immediately like people responded and get to work instead of just raising it a quarter and easing into it?

[breitee]

quote:Originally posted by jackbristow

quote:Originally posted by mrB
Sure the green boxes look bad, but minimal landscaping can make them less obtrusive. I know of someone in Ranch Acres [recently converted/buried] who requested PSO pay for the landscaping. PSO balked at the estimated price to hide the box, but ultimately paid for it in full.

I tend to think that the green boxes look a lot better than power lines running all over the place.  The view of the sky, trees, sunsets, etc. is so much better without looking at utility poles and power lines!

You will still have the poles to carry the wires for telephone and cable.