AEP considers burying lines

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by patric


Meanwhile, the $2 fee for tree trimming and underground burial will continue to show up on electric bills, Bettinger said.

Well jeez Patric, if the commission says it is ok well then it must be ok.

[Chicken Little]

quote: "The instability of the U.S. markets has prompted AEP-PSO to suspend its program to bury overhead lines to protect them from inclement weather, an official said Monday."

Ah, the "Price of Tea in China" gambit.  Effing brilliant.

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

Ah, the "Price of Tea in China" gambit.  Effing brilliant.

Yes, what exactly does the state of the credit market have to do with doing something you're getting paid up front to do? Given their laggardly ways, I fail to see how they couldn't have built up a sizable sum for undergrounding by this point.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by nathanm

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

Ah, the "Price of Tea in China" gambit.  Effing brilliant.

Yes, what exactly does the state of the credit market have to do with doing something you're getting paid up front to do? Given their laggardly ways, I fail to see how they couldn't have built up a sizable sum for undergrounding by this point.

Large businesses like AEP operate on a line of credit and finance these project and get reimbursed through methods like the $2 fee. When the credit market is poor, it is tough to get cheap, reliable financing. Many businesses are worried enough about financing their day-to-day.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Large businesses like AEP operate on a line of credit and finance these project and get reimbursed through methods like the $2 fee. When the credit market is poor, it is tough to get cheap, reliable financing. Many businesses are worried enough about financing their day-to-day.

Meanwhile AEP is still collecting the fee from the ratepayers that was supposed to cover the cost of NEW undergrounding projects.

[stageidea]

Isn't Copper currently at an all time low.  I thought they had fallen over the past couple of months by about fifty percent in price.  I would think this would be a better time to be attempting to bury all of the power lines.

[RecycleMichael]

Copper is not at an all time low...but it has plummeted since last summer.

Copper prices are quoted for delivery in 90 days so today's price is for delivery in March. That means copper is a good indictator of the economy.

Copper prices last July were $4.50 per pound and today they are at $1.44.

Copper is used throughout construction projects including wiring, plumbing, heating and cooling, and even some architectural lighting and decor.

[patric]

It's been 4 years this week since the BIG ice storm.

AEP pulled a bait-and-switch when it promised burying lines was the main reason for a rate increase, only to renig after Corporation Commission approval in favor of more subsidies for their tree-trimming subcontractor.
Never mind the weight of the ice on the wires alone was enough to snap poles...

So, who bought a generator?  ...anything else Tulsan's did to prepare for the next one?

[Red Arrow]

So, who bought a generator?  ...anything else Tulsan's did to prepare for the next one?

I have a small one but it's loud.  My brother borrowed it in 2007 and a day later we needed it. 

I keep talking about buying a whole house generator but haven't stepped up to the price yet.  I also hate the thought of someone messing with our electric system but am not prepared to work on the primary wiring for the automatic switch.

[patric]

I have a small one but it's loud.  My brother borrowed it in 2007 and a day later we needed it. 

I keep talking about buying a whole house generator but haven't stepped up to the price yet.  I also hate the thought of someone messing with our electric system but am not prepared to work on the primary wiring for the automatic switch.

The whole-house generators connect to the natural gas line, and are a whole lot quieter than portables.  They generally install near your meter, and look like just another air conditioner.
You might save money on the transfer switch wiring, by only designating your most critical circuits (as opposed to the whole house).
The biggest danger in a temporary setup is someone may have the generator plugged into a dryer outlet and not isolate the house from the pole, sending power backwards into the neighborhood where linemen are trying to work.

[Red Arrow]

The whole-house generators connect to the natural gas line, and are a whole lot quieter than portables.  They generally install near your meter, and look like just another air conditioner.
You might save money on the transfer switch wiring, by only designating your most critical circuits (as opposed to the whole house).
The biggest danger in a temporary setup is someone may have the generator plugged into a dryer outlet and not isolate the house from the pole, sending power backwards into the neighborhood where linemen are trying to work.

I am aware of the potential problems of backfeeding the line.  One of my uncles invented a sensor that would detect whether the main line was up back in the 70s.  The power companies fought it successfully until the patent ran out.  For the little, 8KW, generator we have extension cords.  Everything can be disconnected from the main power source. 

One of the delays in a whole house generator is that the natural gas line comes in near one end of the back of the house but the electric service is at the other.  The gas service is near the garage rather than the bedrooms which is good for the noise factor.  The circuit breaker panel is in a closet in a bedroom with no real room to add a panel for the switch.  Putting the switch outside by the service entrance and connecting the switch to the circuit breaker panel is the easiest way to connect.  Running the power from the generator to the switch would involve running conduit along the eve of the roof or going underground past/under the back porch.  The price of running 100A service about 80 ft (27 paces) is not going to be trivial with today's price of copper.  The air conditioner outside unit is near the garage so adding a generator next to it would not be a problem.

[heironymouspasparagus]

One of the delays in a whole house generator is that the natural gas line comes in near one end of the back of the house but the electric service is at the other.  The gas service is near the garage rather than the bedrooms which is good for the noise factor.  The circuit breaker panel is in a closet in a bedroom with no real room to add a panel for the switch.  Putting the switch outside by the service entrance and connecting the switch to the circuit breaker panel is the easiest way to connect.  Running the power from the generator to the switch would involve running conduit along the eve of the roof or going underground past/under the back porch.  The price of running 100A service about 80 ft (27 paces) is not going to be trivial with today's price of copper.  The air conditioner outside unit is near the garage so adding a generator next to it would not be a problem.

Ahhh, come on...that's only 4 awg! 

Just get Colburn Electric in Broken Arrow to run that light weigh aluminum wire that is available now....City of Tulsa inspector will even sign off on it!

[Red Arrow]

Ahhh, come on...that's only 4 awg! 
Just get Colburn Electric in Broken Arrow to run that light weigh aluminum wire that is available now....City of Tulsa inspector will even sign off on it!

I don't want aluminum wiring.  It's OK in commercial applications where someone checks the torque on the connectors annually.  I don't want the hassle.  PLUS, Bixby has to sign off, not Tulsa. I took aluminum starter wire out of my airplane because it had too much voltage drop and replaced it with copper.  4 AWG aluminum may meet code but it doesn't meet my requirements.  At one time I was going to run service to the garage to run a welder (100A service) and dad calculated we needed 4AWG COPPER.  I am not messing with aluminum wiring. End of statement.

[heironymouspasparagus]

I don't want aluminum wiring.  It's OK in commercial applications where someone checks the torque on the connectors annually.  I don't want the hassle.  PLUS, Bixby has to sign off, not Tulsa. I took aluminum starter wire out of my airplane because it had too much voltage drop and replaced it with copper.  4 AWG aluminum may meet code but it doesn't meet my requirements.  At one time I was going to run service to the garage to run a welder (100A service) and dad calculated we needed 4AWG COPPER.  I am not messing with aluminum wiring. End of statement.

Aluminum doesn't meet code for residential.  (I was definitely kidding about using it!  We need more inflection.)  I would never choose aluminum after landing the incoming service at the meter.  Just too much loss.  (That's why the grid loses 30% of the electricity generated just pushing it down the wire.)

4 awg copper solid conductor would be good for 100 amp, 120/240 vac service.  And to code.  Stranded would also work and be to code - I just like that little extra bit of margin solid gives.  May not be able to get easily get 4 in a solid - haven't looked for that before.  If you could buy some new down hole submersible pump wire in a 4, that would be great to use.  Insulated and armored, and only a major hassle to work with, but it is great stuff!!  Can use for direct burial.  Expensive, too!  Good to 5,000 vac, just not UL rated.

I have an application at 50 amps where I use 100 feet of 6 awg stranded (semi-portable - extension cord) and it works well, but stranded is always my last choice for fixed installations.  But tough to get in those bigger sizes.

[Red Arrow]

Aluminum doesn't meet code for residential.  (I was definitely kidding about using it!  We need more inflection.)  I would never choose aluminum after landing the incoming service at the meter.  Just too much loss.  (That's why the grid loses 30% of the electricity generated just pushing it down the wire.)

4 awg copper solid conductor would be good for 100 amp, 120/240 vac service.  And to code.  Stranded would also work and be to code - I just like that little extra bit of margin solid gives.  May not be able to get easily get 4 in a solid - haven't looked for that before.  If you could buy some new down hole submersible pump wire in a 4, that would be great to use.  Insulated and armored, and only a major hassle to work with, but it is great stuff!!  Can use for direct burial.  Expensive, too!  Good to 5,000 vac, just not UL rated.

I have an application at 50 amps where I use 100 feet of 6 awg stranded (semi-portable - extension cord) and it works well, but stranded is always my last choice for fixed installations.  But tough to get in those bigger sizes.

I can apply terminals up to 2AWG in stranded (T&B non-insulated).  I don't have any tooling for solid wire that large.

Edit:
Need to add that the run for the welder was approaching 100 ft.  Considering the inductive load of the transformers in the welder (which has PF capacitors) we really probably should have considered 2AWG.