Downtown Stadium Plan by May 30th

[TheArtist]

quote:Originally posted by USRufnex

Maps are nice things, but don't tell the whole story.  There are blocks of nothing in the east end and Blue Dome areas... there are entire blocks of businesses that will be dormant after 5pm-- well, except for the Greyhound bus station and the adult book store, those will be open.  [}:)]  Will baseball fans (and their families) walk to or from El Guapo's and McNellie's before or after the ballgame and would the Drillers even want that, since a big part of the Drillers' profits seem to be tied up in concessions (not gate receipts)?  Where will new businesses(?) be leased/developed if the ballpark succeeds?  Will there be "mixed-use"?  Will there be "walkable urbanity?"  Is there going to be any TIF in place here?... or is this just going to be a "tax it, build it" project???

How would this compare to the last proposal by Kissler/Adwon/Global Development? or the WalMart proposal? or the proposal that a certain "admin" from Tulsa Now openly criticized back in late 2005...?  

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=2680&SearchTerms=Downtown+soccer+stadium?

quote:Out of state developers are working hard to place a 'Major-League Soccer' ('MLS') stadium in Downtown Tulsa's East Village, the 115-acre, Downtown tract within 7th St., I244, Detroit and Highway 75. The developer also plans a 40-acre development of homes and stores nearby. Bring on the homes and stores, says TulsaNow, a grass-roots, citizens' group. But locate the soccer stadium in North Tulsa as part of a regional development strategy.

The Downtown project is supported by Mayor LaFortune. Public funds are likely to be required to leverage it. A close associate of the Mayor is representing the developer, Global Development Partners, and would presumably stand to make a tidy profit if the project went through. 'Star Bonds' – a sales-tax-driven device that does not require a popular vote on the matter – are apparently also under consideration.

So, where are the "homes and stores" in this new proposal?  Where's the "40-acre development"?  Where's the "Tulsa Landing" or "East End" style plans that use the ballpark as an "anchor"?

Jenks has these plans... downtown (so far) has pipedreams of a type of magic ballpark that will ATTRACT development.  Victory Field in Indy was a nice addition in the 90s... but it hardly served as a catalyst.  OKC's Bricktown was already popular BEFORE the ballpark was built, and there were areas right next door to the ballpark that benifitted... there were places for other restaurants, etc. to locate...

The best argument for a ballpark is that it will get a reasonable number of people to come downtown who wouldn't normally go there.  But when they go there, what will they find?  And  will that justify $70mil in new taxes?

4 months is NOT a long time...

Unless you think that downtown will not revitalize, it just a matter of timing. It would indeed be nice if we got the ballpark along with a lot of other stuff. However that hasnt seemed to work for us. Downtown WILL fill in and revitalize. So we are chipping in to get the ballpark first. At least its something now and I bet it will spark some development around it. The Global people still own some property in the area and want to do something with it for their time and investment.

Stuff first then chip in for ballpark. Ballpark first then stuff. It doesnt work only if you dont believe downtown will ever see any other infill or revitalization. I think it will revitalize. Not as quickly as anyone would like, this stuff never does happen that way. But it will eventually.

[AVERAGE JOE]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

updated

What you refer to as "Jail ville" I nicknamed "The Clink" back when. I vote for mine. []

[EricP]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

I think when the drunkies ran into it the poured concrete was cracked--hence the "broken fountain."  But I'm pretty sure they patched it up just fine.

The actual fountain pool was cracked/chipped a bit, that was repaired... but there was a decorative chalice in the middle of the fountain that rose up that was severely damaged and removed. So now we are left with some water jets instead of a decorative fountain. I think the drunken b**ch that hit it should just be made to pay to replace it how it was.

[cannon_fodder]

I've worked in three separate buildings in Abandonburg and eaten in a half dozen others.  

Per the fountain, no - it's not really broken.  But for a while it was every other weekend.  It might be worth the expense of keeping it up in the long run if we can ticket and remove from the roads those drunk enough to fail to see a large concrete fountain in the center of the road.

and if we're in to labeling everything - shouldn't we have the civic forum complex on there and the Pearl is just visible too.

[swake]

The outlook for a stadium downtown is pretty dim.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8582&whichpage=6

The hotel industry people want the hotel tax increase expanded so that there is more funding for the convention and tourism bureau of the chamber. Increased funding for the Chamber is going to be a hard sell, KFAQ and company will be all over that. And also check out the reader comments at the bottom of the article. The same tired old, no taxes, do the roads, downtown sucks, etc. Lots of those comments. Even if the city and the Drillers can get a plan together in 120 days the tax is going to fail.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by swake

The outlook for a stadium downtown is pretty dim.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8582&whichpage=6

The hotel industry people want the hotel tax increase expanded so that there is more funding for the convention and tourism bureau of the chamber. Increased funding for the Chamber is going to be a hard sell, KFAQ and company will be all over that. And also check out the reader comments at the bottom of the article. The same tired old, no taxes, do the roads, downtown sucks, etc. Lots of those comments. Even if the city and the Drillers can get a plan together in 120 days the tax is going to fail.

Why would anyone care about a hotel tax?  How many local residents are going to end up shelling out cash staying in local hotels?  Are they all pissed because it will cost them an extra 45 cents when they cheat on their wives with the after hours cleaning lady?  The hotel tax will be almost exclusively coming from out-of-town wallets.

If they do propose this tax, I hope they plan on only allowing the city to vote, not the entire county.  We have already seen what happens when we let the suburbanites vote on city issues.

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by swake

The outlook for a stadium downtown is pretty dim.

http://www.tulsanow.org/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=8582&whichpage=6

The hotel industry people want the hotel tax increase expanded so that there is more funding for the convention and tourism bureau of the chamber. Increased funding for the Chamber is going to be a hard sell, KFAQ and company will be all over that. And also check out the reader comments at the bottom of the article. The same tired old, no taxes, do the roads, downtown sucks, etc. Lots of those comments. Even if the city and the Drillers can get a plan together in 120 days the tax is going to fail.

I don't think you put the right link in.  

Without seeing the article, I can tell you the commenters are the same 10 trolls who pounce on anything remotely connected to Tulsa development.  Don't let them give you a skewed perspective on the Tulsa electorate.  Downtown baseball is a winning issue, ESPECIALLY if the hotel industry WANTS the tax.

[Renaissance]

Never mind.  I found it.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080203_1_A1_hSeve16652

Looks like this thing will come to a vote--at least, that's what it appears P.J. Lassek is being told off the record, because that's what his stories are anticipating.  But they're obviously trying to get the lodging industry on board, which makes sense.  Nothing like the bearers of the tax burden saying, "tax me!  tax me!" to shut down opponents.

By the way--someone please explain how ordinary Tulsa residents might feel the burden of this tax.  I guess their guests staying in hotels might have to spend a couple of bucks more.  I'm trying to figure out other negative consequences of a higher lodging tax--I guess you could in theory get diminishing returns by keeping visitors away.  I'm not sure that an 8% tax versus a 5% tax makes a lot of difference in that regard, though--doesn't seem near a "ceiling" that would make Tulsa seem too expensive to host a convention in, although I don't know the calculations in such matters.  

Thoughts?

[TheArtist]

If there were to be an increase in a hotel tax they believe that there are more pressing needs than a ballpark. Some would rather have it go to roads, police, etc. Better out of towners helping to pay for roads, otherwise any amount that is going to a stadium instead of roads will indeed likely come out of Tulsans pockets. They are tired of taxes and money being spent on "Kitties downtown toys" versus using it on roads.  

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

If there were to be an increase in a hotel tax they believe that there are more pressing needs than a ballpark. Some would rather have it go to roads, police, etc. Better out of towners helping to pay for roads, otherwise any amount that is going to a stadium instead of roads will indeed likely come out of Tulsans pockets. They are tired of taxes and money being spent on "Kitties downtown toys" versus using it on roads.  

If there were to be a tax increase in "motel and hotel" sales tax it would have the overwhelming support of the TMC...

In this instance that may not be bad.

The GOB's at the Chamber will gain a slight increase to their yearly allowance but for once will have to focus their attention on a DT Tulsa issue.

[TeeDub]

If the Chamber gets more money, will they promise not to squander it trying to fight 1804?

[tulsa1603]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Never mind.  I found it.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=20080203_1_A1_hSeve16652

Looks like this thing will come to a vote--at least, that's what it appears P.J. Lassek is being told off the record, because that's what his stories are anticipating.  But they're obviously trying to get the lodging industry on board, which makes sense.  Nothing like the bearers of the tax burden saying, "tax me!  tax me!" to shut down opponents.

By the way--someone please explain how ordinary Tulsa residents might feel the burden of this tax.  I guess their guests staying in hotels might have to spend a couple of bucks more.  I'm trying to figure out other negative consequences of a higher lodging tax--I guess you could in theory get diminishing returns by keeping visitors away.  I'm not sure that an 8% tax versus a 5% tax makes a lot of difference in that regard, though--doesn't seem near a "ceiling" that would make Tulsa seem too expensive to host a convention in, although I don't know the calculations in such matters.  

Thoughts?

I travel a lot, and I never notice the hotel tax until I've already completed my stay and get the final bill!  I think total tax was $22.13 on my recent $149.00 room in Denver - that's about 14-15% total tax.  It always shocks me to see it, but I never look at those things beforehand, so I can't imagine others would be researching it to decide where to go, either.  It might affect convention business, but I don't think it would affect it any more than the stigma of having a convention in somehwere that is thought of as boring, like Tulsa is.

[T-TownMike]

Tulsa needs to wake up. The hotel tax is done in all major metropolitian areas. Kansas City passed it to fund the Sprint Arena. I'm surprised to see how many Tulsans are so reluctant to improving their community. It won't even come out your pocket.

[perspicuity85]

quote:Originally posted by T-TownMike

Tulsa needs to wake up. The hotel tax is done in all major metropolitian areas. Kansas City passed it to fund the Sprint Arena. I'm surprised to see how many Tulsans are so reluctant to improving their community. It won't even come out your pocket.

Start a petition, T-TownMike, and I'll be the first to sign.

[Breadburner]

quote:Originally posted by TeeDub



If the Chamber gets more money, will they promise not to squander it trying to fight 1804?

They will hire a consultant to see if the fight is worth it and then fight it anyway....Then hire another consultant to see if it was worth it....