Jenks Passenger Rail

[Admin]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

From Tulsa Business.com

Slipped under the radar with all the new stadium talk.  Looks like it ain't the BA after all that has INCOG transit wonks aflutter . . . it's the OTHER side of the river!

quote: River Line Passenger Rail Service Proposed

Jenks residents are learning more about a study being conducted by the Indian Nations Council of Governments that proposes rail passenger service from the hub of the metro along the Arkansas River to Jenks.

Tim Armer and Patrick Fox with INCOG told attendees at the Jenks Chamber of Commerce luncheon last week that much of the planning is still in its formative stages but part of the Metro's long range transportation planning program calls for a passenger service on upgraded Union Pacific rails.

INCOG repeated the presentation at Tuesday night's City Council meeting.

Tulsa Sapulpa Union Railway currently operates a freight service to Kimberly-Clarke two times a day on the route being referred to in the study as the River Line.

The Journal asked the presenters if they had talked to the current operators of the railroad.

Fox said they have talked to Union Pacific and will soon be talking to TSU which is headquartered in Sapulpa.

TSU as well as Sand Springs Railroad also operates on other existing rail within the plan that INCOG says would make creating passenger service feasible. Armer and Fox said that using existing rail was key to keeping costs down but the rails would have to be upgraded to carry much faster moving passenger trains.

The study is looking at the 1,200 square-mile Tulsa Transportation Management Area.

TMA is comprised of Tulsa County and portions of Creek, Osage, Rogers, and Wagoner counties. The area includes the cities of Bixby, Broken Arrow, Catoosa, Claremore, Collinsville, Coweta, Fair Oaks, Glenpool, Jenks, Kiefer, Owasso, Sand Springs, Sapulpa, Skiatook, Sperry, Verdigris and Tulsa.

Maps, handouts and powerpoint was used to show details of the study.

Armer said that among the reasons to advance the idea of rail passenger service was the ever-increasing cost of gasoline and traffic congestion.

He said the 2000 census data also shows the need to p[lan now. The Tulsa metropolitan area has 701,580 residents, all needing reliable, convenient, and safe transportation opportunities, he said.

The duo said that Destination 2030 LRTP looks 25 years into the future to anticipate transportation needs for the TMA. The plan is predicated on demographic and economic assumptions and forecasts for the region. It identifies the various elements of the surface transportation systems (roadways, public transportation/transit, freight and bicycle/pedestrian) desired for a metropolitan community like Tulsa.

They said that Tulsa as a city is growing much slower than its suburbs, Tulsa about 4 percent and towns like Jenks, 55 percent. A rail system servicing Jenks would lend itself to development along the route on the west side of the River but also create development at eastward connectors along the way.

Plans for utilizing rail transportation also show up in plans for the billion-dollar River District Development in Jenks.

Armer said that funding for startup and maintenance of rail transportation has the ear of the federal government. To ensure financial feasibility, the LRTP (long range transportation plan) summarizes implementation costs and presents what the two called a "practicable funding scenario."

In handout material, INCOG says the LRTP will serve as a guide for the investment of local, state and federal resources and will become a component of the Oklahoma Statewide Intermodal Transportation Plan.

[Renaissance]

So, does INCOG have a particular priority among the BA and River lines?  What's the timeline on this, from study to active service?  Do you expect the cost to be similar to what was discussed in the BA line study?

[we vs us]

Dang, mods, why did our earlier thread get chucked?  That was actually kind of enjoyable.

[waterboy]

Pfox, is this the line that runs along the base of Turkey Mtn. next to the river? That would indeed be cool. But I fear it is not.

[TheArtist]

Yes. Btw, I did mention this Jenks to Tulsa line in the other thread several times but everyone else chose to ignore my sage council and focus exclusively on the BA line.[]

[pfox]

Floyd... from a planning perspective, the Broken Arrow line is further along, having received some federal dollars help fund the Alternatives Analysis for the corridor.  The lines are different.  Rather than saying one is a priority over the other, it is more accurate to view them in their own light.  The BA/DT line has great potential as a commuter line, with targeted TOD redevelopment at selected stops.  It travels through a largely developed area, and through the most dense employment corridor in the region.  Approximately half of the regions jobs exist within 1 mile each direction of that rail line.  The River Line, on  the other hand is different.  While it would carry a fair number of commuters to start, it would, initially, be more of an excursion line to and from destinations (Downtown Tulsa/Jenks Riverwalk, etc.) That being said, there is clearly great potential for new development along the river and along that line, so there is tremendous upside for TOD and, as a result, for creating new ridership around the line.  I guess what I am saying is, both lines have great potential, but success may be measured differently in the beginning.  The bottom line is the lines serve both Tulsa and the suburbs and benefit both Tulsa and the suburbs.

Truthfully, the most critical segment for either line is the one that connects the two: the downtown corridor.  Basically, from 23rd and Jackson on the west bank, across the river, through downtown to Union Station and to both Broken Arrow and to the north towards the Airport.  That segment really should be begun first in order to make the rest of the lines work.

Waterboy...yes that line that runs below Turkey Mountain is the one we have been looking at.

[Renaissance]

Pardon my ignorance--what does TOD refer to?  Does it stand for some variation on blank-blank-Development?

[pmcalk]

TOD=Transit oriented development.  In other words, mixed, dense use so that large number of people are within walking distance of the commuter line.  It also helps to promote the stop as a destination point by allowing shops, restaurants, etc....

Great news on Jenks, but I would still like to hear about a northern route--downtown to Owasso via the airport.  Like the west side of the river, lots of potential for TODs.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Pardon my ignorance--what does TOD refer to?  Does it stand for some variation on blank-blank-Development?

quote:Originally posted by Floyd (on Jan 10, 2008)

Bates - you are usually so well informed, but you may have missed the train (heh heh) on this one. Let me help you out.

Start here for the BA link: http://www.tulsatransit.org/news-info/commuter-rail-study/

Follow that link, and Transit Oriented Development is explained on page 4 of the executive summary of the final report.  

[Renaissance]

ZING!  You got me.

[Rico]

http://www.journalrecord.com/article.cfm?recid=85564

Real Estate
New Tulsa urban planner outlines river, rail proposals
January 24, 2008
TULSA – Tulsa city leaders will soon have a new riverfront development idea to consider, the first of several downtown revitalization proposals expected from Mayor Kathy Taylor's new urban planner.
Jack Crowley, a University of Oklahoma-Tulsa visiting professor on loan to Taylor's staff, is working with HCW Development Co. of Branson, Mo., to revisit its Tulsa Landing retail and residential real estate concept for the Festival Park area.
Since that depended upon an Arkansas River tax proposal that went down in defeat last fall, Crowley has contemplated other means to generate the infrastructure funds HCW requires to jump-start that $1 billion project on the 23rd Street west bank.
The former Oklahoma Department of Transportation director and Williams Realty vice president also has pondered how to use Tulsa Landing as a growth tool for downtown.
His link: inner-city rail.
Identifying a lack of population density as downtown's biggest problem, Crowley has focused on the underlying chicken-and-egg factors since joining the mayor's team this month.
The short-term solution, in Crowley's eyes, lies in building an alternative transportation system that helps commuters come downtown as it adds more entertainment venues to engage those consumers and make the central core more attractive.
With the latter demonstrating steady growth – Taylor unveiled one possible facet Tuesday with a downtown ballpark proposal for the Tulsa Drillers AA baseball team, even as the 18,000-seat BOK Center nears completion and the Brady and Blue Dome districts prosper – Crowley is working on transportation ideas that would not place a drain on voters.
While he sees great untapped potential in Tulsa's hundreds of bicycle path miles, Crowley said Tulsa's biggest opportunity lies in building inner-city rail.
"Any city of Tulsa's size, or larger, that doesn't have a fixed rail system of transit in the next 15 to 20 years is going to be way behind the curve," he said, noting the progressive rise in fuel prices. "You can't rely on the car to continue to grow."
Using a modern passenger rail line to connect the BOK Center and ballpark with a high-energy entertainment center like Tulsa Landing would help overcome not only fears of commuter systems and leaving behind individual vehicles, but of just going downtown. By building such a system with bonds or tax-increment financing, incorporating development hubs with rail stops featuring commercial space for long-term tenant leases, Crowley said the inner-city rail should become self-supporting.
The end result would not only build public trust in a rail system, but increase downtown's density and attract more residents.
"Double the density, double the sales tax," he said. "You use the transportation system to cause the density that you're looking for."
The former dean of the University of Georgia College of Environmental Design hopes to offer a inner-city rail proposal, with a financing plan to help jump-start Tulsa Landing, within three weeks.
"I just have to convince myself it would work," he said with a confident smile.
Once completed, Crowley said it would open the doors to extend the rail line from downtown to Tulsa International Airport, again using development hubs at terminal stops to pay for the system's operation. He's already contemplating a route, again incorporating real estate the city already owns to keep costs contained.
After that line was complete, Crowley estimated, the city would be prepared for extending such a system for other commuter traffic.
"My sense is, this town's closer than it ever has been to change," he said.
Crowley is on loan to Taylor until August, although Crowley said he would be interested in sticking around. Working with the Chicago-based real estate consultants Jones Lang LaSalle, he intends to help develop not just mass transit and downtown issues, but in updating the city's comprehensive plan.
"In eight months, what I can do is set up two or three projects that clearly have some economic advantages to them," he said. "It's going to take some big thinking."
While he would prefer to present the ideas and watch others take them before the public, Crowley expects to shepherd the rail concepts within the city government, and perhaps outside it.
"It's going to take a clear picture," said the OU graduate, telling how he intends to outline the economic details of such systems. "It's going to take three to five years to make it commercially viable."

from the Journal Record 1/24/2008

[pfox]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Pardon my ignorance--what does TOD refer to?  Does it stand for some variation on blank-blank-Development?

Sorry. Yes..Transit Oriented Development.  Pmcalk nailed it.  

I prefer to flip it...Development Oriented Transit.  I think it better illustrates the effect that properly planned and designed transportation systems can have on a community.  It is infrastructure in the truest sense, and one that can actually help pay for itself, making it far more financially sustainable than much of our existing infrastructure.

[sgrizzle]

Crowley talks commuter rail from the west bank to downtown (same line as the jenks one I believe)

quote:
New Tulsa urban planner outlines river, rail proposals
January 24, 2008
TULSA – Tulsa city leaders will soon have a new riverfront development idea to consider, the first of several downtown revitalization proposals expected from Mayor Kathy Taylor's new urban planner.
Jack Crowley, a University of Oklahoma-Tulsa visiting professor on loan to Taylor's staff, is working with HCW Development Co. of Branson, Mo., to revisit its Tulsa Landing retail and residential real estate concept for the Festival Park area.
Since that depended upon an Arkansas River tax proposal that went down in defeat last fall, Crowley has contemplated other means to generate the infrastructure funds HCW requires to jump-start that $1 billion project on the 23rd Street west bank.
The former Oklahoma Department of Transportation director and Williams Realty vice president also has pondered how to use Tulsa Landing as a growth tool for downtown.
His link: inner-city rail.
Identifying a lack of population density as downtown's biggest problem, Crowley has focused on the underlying chicken-and-egg factors since joining the mayor's team this month.
The short-term solution, in Crowley's eyes, lies in building an alternative transportation system that helps commuters come downtown as it adds more entertainment venues to engage those consumers and make the central core more attractive.
With the latter demonstrating steady growth – Taylor unveiled one possible facet Tuesday with a downtown ballpark proposal for the Tulsa Drillers AA baseball team, even as the 18,000-seat BOK Center nears completion and the Brady and Blue Dome districts prosper – Crowley is working on transportation ideas that would not place a drain on voters.
While he sees great untapped potential in Tulsa's hundreds of bicycle path miles, Crowley said Tulsa's biggest opportunity lies in building inner-city rail.
"Any city of Tulsa's size, or larger, that doesn't have a fixed rail system of transit in the next 15 to 20 years is going to be way behind the curve," he said, noting the progressive rise in fuel prices. "You can't rely on the car to continue to grow."
Using a modern passenger rail line to connect the BOK Center and ballpark with a high-energy entertainment center like Tulsa Landing would help overcome not only fears of commuter systems and leaving behind individual vehicles, but of just going downtown. By building such a system with bonds or tax-increment financing, incorporating development hubs with rail stops featuring commercial space for long-term tenant leases, Crowley said the inner-city rail should become self-supporting.
The end result would not only build public trust in a rail system, but increase downtown's density and attract more residents.
"Double the density, double the sales tax," he said. "You use the transportation system to cause the density that you're looking for."
The former dean of the University of Georgia College of Environmental Design hopes to offer a inner-city rail proposal, with a financing plan to help jump-start Tulsa Landing, within three weeks.
"I just have to convince myself it would work," he said with a confident smile.
Once completed, Crowley said it would open the doors to extend the rail line from downtown to Tulsa International Airport, again using development hubs at terminal stops to pay for the system's operation. He's already contemplating a route, again incorporating real estate the city already owns to keep costs contained.
After that line was complete, Crowley estimated, the city would be prepared for extending such a system for other commuter traffic.
"My sense is, this town's closer than it ever has been to change," he said.
Crowley is on loan to Taylor until August, although Crowley said he would be interested in sticking around. Working with the Chicago-based real estate consultants Jones Lang LaSalle, he intends to help develop not just mass transit and downtown issues, but in updating the city's comprehensive plan.
"In eight months, what I can do is set up two or three projects that clearly have some economic advantages to them," he said. "It's going to take some big thinking."
While he would prefer to present the ideas and watch others take them before the public, Crowley expects to shepherd the rail concepts within the city government, and perhaps outside it.
"It's going to take a clear picture," said the OU graduate, telling how he intends to outline the economic details of such systems. "It's going to take three to five years to make it commercially viable."

http://www.journalrecord.com/article.cfm?recid=85564

[we vs us]

So i kinda missed a lot of talk on the old transit thread, so excuse my ignorance if we covered this already:

Are there other cities the size of Tulsa that either are or have already put into place any passenger rail at all?  It seems like a fairly major sea change to me that the Tulsa metro area -- which is small in the grand scheme of things -- should be talking about train transit. Crowley talks about density downtown, and density at station nodes, but he's not mentioning density in Tulsa overall.  Are there enough people in Tulsa altogether to justify rail?

[brunoflipper]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Crowley talks commuter rail from the west bank to downtown (same line as the jenks one I believe)

quote:
New Tulsa urban planner outlines river, rail proposals
January 24, 2008
TULSA – Tulsa city leaders will soon have a new riverfront development idea to consider, the first of several downtown revitalization proposals expected from Mayor Kathy Taylor's new urban planner.
Jack Crowley, a University of Oklahoma-Tulsa visiting professor on loan to Taylor's staff, is working with HCW Development Co. of Branson, Mo., to revisit its Tulsa Landing retail and residential real estate concept for the Festival Park area.
Since that depended upon an Arkansas River tax proposal that went down in defeat last fall, Crowley has contemplated other means to generate the infrastructure funds HCW requires to jump-start that $1 billion project on the 23rd Street west bank.
The former Oklahoma Department of Transportation director and Williams Realty vice president also has pondered how to use Tulsa Landing as a growth tool for downtown.
His link: inner-city rail.
Identifying a lack of population density as downtown's biggest problem, Crowley has focused on the underlying chicken-and-egg factors since joining the mayor's team this month.
The short-term solution, in Crowley's eyes, lies in building an alternative transportation system that helps commuters come downtown as it adds more entertainment venues to engage those consumers and make the central core more attractive.
With the latter demonstrating steady growth – Taylor unveiled one possible facet Tuesday with a downtown ballpark proposal for the Tulsa Drillers AA baseball team, even as the 18,000-seat BOK Center nears completion and the Brady and Blue Dome districts prosper – Crowley is working on transportation ideas that would not place a drain on voters.
While he sees great untapped potential in Tulsa's hundreds of bicycle path miles, Crowley said Tulsa's biggest opportunity lies in building inner-city rail.
"Any city of Tulsa's size, or larger, that doesn't have a fixed rail system of transit in the next 15 to 20 years is going to be way behind the curve," he said, noting the progressive rise in fuel prices. "You can't rely on the car to continue to grow."
Using a modern passenger rail line to connect the BOK Center and ballpark with a high-energy entertainment center like Tulsa Landing would help overcome not only fears of commuter systems and leaving behind individual vehicles, but of just going downtown. By building such a system with bonds or tax-increment financing, incorporating development hubs with rail stops featuring commercial space for long-term tenant leases, Crowley said the inner-city rail should become self-supporting.
The end result would not only build public trust in a rail system, but increase downtown's density and attract more residents.
"Double the density, double the sales tax," he said. "You use the transportation system to cause the density that you're looking for."
The former dean of the University of Georgia College of Environmental Design hopes to offer a inner-city rail proposal, with a financing plan to help jump-start Tulsa Landing, within three weeks.
"I just have to convince myself it would work," he said with a confident smile.
Once completed, Crowley said it would open the doors to extend the rail line from downtown to Tulsa International Airport, again using development hubs at terminal stops to pay for the system's operation. He's already contemplating a route, again incorporating real estate the city already owns to keep costs contained.
After that line was complete, Crowley estimated, the city would be prepared for extending such a system for other commuter traffic.
"My sense is, this town's closer than it ever has been to change," he said.
Crowley is on loan to Taylor until August, although Crowley said he would be interested in sticking around. Working with the Chicago-based real estate consultants Jones Lang LaSalle, he intends to help develop not just mass transit and downtown issues, but in updating the city's comprehensive plan.
"In eight months, what I can do is set up two or three projects that clearly have some economic advantages to them," he said. "It's going to take some big thinking."
While he would prefer to present the ideas and watch others take them before the public, Crowley expects to shepherd the rail concepts within the city government, and perhaps outside it.
"It's going to take a clear picture," said the OU graduate, telling how he intends to outline the economic details of such systems. "It's going to take three to five years to make it commercially viable."

http://www.journalrecord.com/article.cfm?recid=85564

well, this sounds awfully familiar... i like it and the "not place a drain on voters" should appease most of the naysayers...