Jenks Passenger Rail

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by we vs us

So i kinda missed a lot of talk on the old transit thread, so excuse my ignorance if we covered this already:

Are there other cities the size of Tulsa that either are or have already put into place any passenger rail at all?  It seems like a fairly major sea change to me that the Tulsa metro area -- which is small in the grand scheme of things -- should be talking about train transit. Crowley talks about density downtown, and density at station nodes, but he's not mentioning density in Tulsa overall.  Are there enough people in Tulsa altogether to justify rail?

The population of Tulsa as a whole really isn't too important. What is vital is that there are enough origins (homes or park and ride car parking spaces) or destinations (offices, shops or entertainment) within the catchment area of the transit stop. Thats where the density issue comes in.

Personally, I think the only charge that consumers of mass transit should pay is the marginal cost of there trip. That would allow it to effectively compete with the car.

[sgrizzle]

I would ride the jenks rail because I like the idea of being able to hit the riverwalk, Tulsa Landing, and an event at the Arena or East Village, and not needing to worry about my car. Just being able to hit multiple west bank destinations would be great in my opinion.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

I would ride the jenks rail because I like the idea of being able to hit the riverwalk, Tulsa Landing, and an event at the Arena or East Village, and not needing to worry about my car. Just being able to hit multiple west bank destinations would be great in my opinion.

What train are you talking about?  Sounds like the route you are talking about heads to Fairytaleland.

The one being talked about in this thread or shown on this map that was made 5-10 years ago.
http://incog.org/Transportation/destination2030/maps/3-2030PublicTransportationPlan.pdf

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

quote:Originally posted by inteller

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

I would ride the jenks rail because I like the idea of being able to hit the riverwalk, Tulsa Landing, and an event at the Arena or East Village, and not needing to worry about my car. Just being able to hit multiple west bank destinations would be great in my opinion.

What train are you talking about?  Sounds like the route you are talking about heads to Fairytaleland.

The one being talked about in this thread or shown on this map that was made 5-10 years ago.
http://incog.org/Transportation/destination2030/maps/3-2030PublicTransportationPlan.pdf

Unfortunately for Inteller, the train will not be extended to Ostrichville, the soils are too sandy and unstable.

[swake]

But, luckily Ostrichville will have a Super Target.

[Chicken Little]

Thanks, Inteller.  I feel the same way about you.  There are a lot of cranky bast**ds on this board, but you are the George Burns of angry.

[Rico]

quote:Originally posted by brunoflipper

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle

Crowley talks commuter rail from the west bank to downtown (same line as the jenks one I believe)

quote:
New Tulsa urban planner outlines river, rail proposals
January 24, 2008
TULSA – Tulsa city leaders will soon have a new riverfront development idea to consider, the first of several downtown revitalization proposals expected from Mayor Kathy Taylor's new urban planner.
Jack Crowley, a University of Oklahoma-Tulsa visiting professor on loan to Taylor's staff, is working with HCW Development Co. of Branson, Mo., to revisit its Tulsa Landing retail and residential real estate concept for the Festival Park area.
Since that depended upon an Arkansas River tax proposal that went down in defeat last fall, Crowley has contemplated other means to generate the infrastructure funds HCW requires to jump-start that $1 billion project on the 23rd Street west bank.
The former Oklahoma Department of Transportation director and Williams Realty vice president also has pondered how to use Tulsa Landing as a growth tool for downtown.
His link: inner-city rail.
Identifying a lack of population density as downtown's biggest problem, Crowley has focused on the underlying chicken-and-egg factors since joining the mayor's team this month.
The short-term solution, in Crowley's eyes, lies in building an alternative transportation system that helps commuters come downtown as it adds more entertainment venues to engage those consumers and make the central core more attractive.
With the latter demonstrating steady growth – Taylor unveiled one possible facet Tuesday with a downtown ballpark proposal for the Tulsa Drillers AA baseball team, even as the 18,000-seat BOK Center nears completion and the Brady and Blue Dome districts prosper – Crowley is working on transportation ideas that would not place a drain on voters.
While he sees great untapped potential in Tulsa's hundreds of bicycle path miles, Crowley said Tulsa's biggest opportunity lies in building inner-city rail.
"Any city of Tulsa's size, or larger, that doesn't have a fixed rail system of transit in the next 15 to 20 years is going to be way behind the curve," he said, noting the progressive rise in fuel prices. "You can't rely on the car to continue to grow."
Using a modern passenger rail line to connect the BOK Center and ballpark with a high-energy entertainment center like Tulsa Landing would help overcome not only fears of commuter systems and leaving behind individual vehicles, but of just going downtown. By building such a system with bonds or tax-increment financing, incorporating development hubs with rail stops featuring commercial space for long-term tenant leases, Crowley said the inner-city rail should become self-supporting.
The end result would not only build public trust in a rail system, but increase downtown's density and attract more residents.
"Double the density, double the sales tax," he said. "You use the transportation system to cause the density that you're looking for."
The former dean of the University of Georgia College of Environmental Design hopes to offer a inner-city rail proposal, with a financing plan to help jump-start Tulsa Landing, within three weeks.
"I just have to convince myself it would work," he said with a confident smile.
Once completed, Crowley said it would open the doors to extend the rail line from downtown to Tulsa International Airport, again using development hubs at terminal stops to pay for the system's operation. He's already contemplating a route, again incorporating real estate the city already owns to keep costs contained.
After that line was complete, Crowley estimated, the city would be prepared for extending such a system for other commuter traffic.
"My sense is, this town's closer than it ever has been to change," he said.
Crowley is on loan to Taylor until August, although Crowley said he would be interested in sticking around. Working with the Chicago-based real estate consultants Jones Lang LaSalle, he intends to help develop not just mass transit and downtown issues, but in updating the city's comprehensive plan.
"In eight months, what I can do is set up two or three projects that clearly have some economic advantages to them," he said. "It's going to take some big thinking."
While he would prefer to present the ideas and watch others take them before the public, Crowley expects to shepherd the rail concepts within the city government, and perhaps outside it.
"It's going to take a clear picture," said the OU graduate, telling how he intends to outline the economic details of such systems. "It's going to take three to five years to make it commercially viable."

http://www.journalrecord.com/article.cfm?recid=85564

well, this sounds awfully familiar... i like it and the "not place a drain on voters" should appease most of the naysayers...


Tulsa Landing........?

[akupetsky]

Has anyone studied the cost of a rail line vs. the cost of road upkeep, widening (including property acquisition), etc., which is universally accepted to be a public responsibility?

[booWorld]

The costs and benefits of rail transit for the Tulsa region have been studied for decades.  There are many factors to consider, including the price of gasoline, travel times, and the potential for transit-oriented development.

In the late 1980s and early 1990s, Parsons Brinckerhoff Quade & Douglas prepared the Oklahoma Fixed Guideway Transportation System Study for the Oklahoma Department of Transportation.  The study considered eight potential corridors for light rail transit and high occupancy vehicle lanes.  The Jenks/Riverside corridor was one of the corridors studied, with one potential alignment on the west side of the river and two potential alignments on the east side of the river (one along Peoria and one along Riverside Drive).  For the west side alignment, the existing railroad tracks between 36th and Jackson and 71st Street were included in the route.  

There's no doubt that the construction and maintenance of streets and highways is very expensive.  But a street network is what most Tulsans expect to have, because it allows for great freedom of movement throughout the city and region.  The capital costs of rail-based transit systems are very high, and rail transit doesn't allow for much freedom of choice because the locations for stations are limited.

Streets and highways are more expensive in sprawling places such as Tulsa.  Passenger rail transit doesn't make very much sense where intense development is not allowed near the stations or stops.  Take a look at the zoning map for Tulsa and notice how much land adjacent to proposed rail alignments is in the RS districts.  For decades, the TMAPC has been reacting to the way most Tulsans want to live.  It's logical to have denser development adjacent to transportation routes, but many Tulsans fight the encroachment of commercial or mixed-use development, even at locations where it has been planned for a long time.  The topic about 101st and Memorial is typical example of this.

To be viable, rail transit will need be considered as a piece of a much larger picture.  Streets and highways are a basic expectation of any citizen.  For most Tulsans, the option of rail transit along select, sparsely developed corridors is a non-essential service and an extra financial burden.

[booWorld]

quote:Originally posted by Rico

http://www.journalrecord.com/article.cfm?recid=85564

Real Estate
New Tulsa urban planner outlines river, rail proposals
January 24, 2008
TULSA – Tulsa city leaders will soon have a new riverfront development idea to consider, the first of several downtown revitalization proposals expected from Mayor Kathy Taylor's new urban planner.
Jack Crowley, a University of Oklahoma-Tulsa visiting professor on loan to Taylor's staff, is working with HCW Development Co. of Branson, Mo., to revisit its Tulsa Landing retail and residential real estate concept for the Festival Park area...

The former Oklahoma Department of Transportation director and Williams Realty vice president also has pondered how to use Tulsa Landing as a growth tool for downtown.
His link: inner-city rail.
Identifying a lack of population density as downtown's biggest problem, Crowley has focused on the underlying chicken-and-egg factors since joining the mayor's team this month.
The short-term solution, in Crowley's eyes, lies in building an alternative transportation system that helps commuters come downtown as it adds more entertainment venues to engage those consumers and make the central core more attractive...

While he sees great untapped potential in Tulsa's hundreds of bicycle path miles, Crowley said Tulsa's biggest opportunity lies in building inner-city rail...

Using a modern passenger rail line to connect the BOK Center and ballpark with a high-energy entertainment center like Tulsa Landing would help overcome not only fears of commuter systems and leaving behind individual vehicles, but of just going downtown. By building such a system with bonds or tax-increment financing, incorporating development hubs with rail stops featuring commercial space for long-term tenant leases, Crowley said the inner-city rail should become self-supporting.
The end result would not only build public trust in a rail system, but increase downtown's density and attract more residents.
"Double the density, double the sales tax," he said. "You use the transportation system to cause the density that you're looking for."
The former dean of the University of Georgia College of Environmental Design hopes to offer a inner-city rail proposal, with a financing plan to help jump-start Tulsa Landing, within three weeks.
"I just have to convince myself it would work," he said with a confident smile.
Once completed, Crowley said it would open the doors to extend the rail line from downtown to Tulsa International Airport, again using development hubs at terminal stops to pay for the system's operation. He's already contemplating a route, again incorporating real estate the city already owns to keep costs contained.
After that line was complete, Crowley estimated, the city would be prepared for extending such a system for other commuter traffic...


from the Journal Record 1/24/2008

Is this what's meant by a "starter" rail line for Tulsa?  If so, which segment would be included in the initial phase?

[Bike_Billboards]

By the time this rolls, EVERYBODY on this board now will be DEAD.

[PonderInc]

I really appreciate everyone who participates in rational and civil debate on this forum.  Thank you for your time and thoughtful consideration...regardless of which side of the issues you stand on.

Those who only know how to drop turds on the table degrade the value of the debate, and "turn off" people who might otherwise want to participate on this forum, and add their reasoned voices to the conversation.  

Unfortunately, that's Tulsa's loss, and nobody wins.

[Bike_Billboards]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc
Those who only know how to drop turds on the table degrade the value of the debate, and "turn off" people who might otherwise want to participate on this forum, and add their reasoned voices to the conversation.  

Gosh, I HEART America!  Drop turds on a table in Beijing, and your kneecaps might get re-arranged.  Drop turds in America, it's DEMOCRACY!  

Gotta love it.

[Renaissance]

Well, this is only an internet forum, after all.  The real discussions take place live and in person, and the upcoming rail symposium will be a good place for that to occur.  In real life, unlike on the internet, when the childish fanatics show up to scream, security can remove them and the adults can go about their business.

[Transport_Oklahoma]

Using GoogleEarth I see the right of way of the proposed Tulsa-Jenks commuter rail line (Union Pacific/former Midland Valley Railroad) is intact to beyond South Memorial Drive in Bixby.