Sorry, Mr. Gumm, for standing yer ground

[tim huntzinger]

I do not know the resolution of the case, but I was absolutely, 100% wrong for doubting the word of Kenneth Gumm, who in defending himself from a crazed attacker shot and killed the attacker.  While I understand that the use of deadly force may entail some charges or another, I sincerely hope that the prosecution of Mr. Gumm does not cause a hardship.  He should be given a medal, extra ammo, and supported by all gunowners for his quick and decisive action.

This is not a criticism of the DA for deciding to put this to a jury.  This is just to say that, given a recent incident, I now more fully understand the importance of defending oneself, and believe that more people need to stand their ground when confronted by crazed predators who think they can just threaten anyone they want.

Literally, the police cannot be expected to adequately protect and prevent random acts of violence, given their abysmally understaffed state and number of dangerous criminals stalking the unwary.

Your 2nd Amendment: Use it or lose it!

[mr.jaynes]

I lived in the New Orleans area for a time. I instinctively knew it was a high-crime city, and I accordingly took precautions to make myself a hard target. And if I'd do it there, I'd do it here, in terms of staying safe. Having read the provided link, it baffles me why the DA would even consider prosecuting if it was a case of self-defense. For me, it all boils down to, is a law-abiding people required to peacefully submit to the savages and cannibals that are the criminals, or does one fight back?

[tulsacyclist]

Whoa.. did Hell freeze over?

If you are being serious, good to see you've come around.

If you are joking, gooood one.

[tim huntzinger]

No joke.  Stand your ground.  Fire a warning shot. Go for the stop. Enjoy a doughnut and coffee when the fuzz arrives.  Screw the predators.  To hell with the other cheek.

[tulsacyclist]

So when are you signing up for a concealed carry class?

[Conan71]

Kind of goes along the lines of thinking you'd act one way in a situation until you find yourself in it and realize you had to react differently or wish you could have.

Sorry to hear something bad must have happened.  Glad you've learned to appreciate at least one of the many values in owning firearms.

[tim huntzinger]

Yeah, it was a pretty discouraging experience, to say the least, which I will do here (though I have 'blogged' about it on a local website). Suffice it to say it is best to not open one's door for any reason to any but 100% trusted folk, and to expect the least from 'our finest.'

Do not get me wrong about firearms, no change there. Just a change in my feelings about the specific situation. Always been about that 2nd Amendment. I have gained empathy for Mr. Gumm, and regret excoriating him prematurely.

I am debating the concealed permit, what is the penalty for slinging without a permit? If one does carry, is it best to have something with maximimu stopping power and efficiency like a Glock or something that has a smaller bulge profile?  For the house I am thinking a shotgun, but for out and about I need to resolve the Glock/mini dilemna and whether to get the permit.

[cannon_fodder]

Well, if your serious about home protection and a carry permit (get the license, concealed weapon can be a felony) you could probably have a single weapon.  Lately, the most popular has been a .40 cal. as it offers stopping power without too much powder behind it (9mm is often cited as too fast and can cut threw a target without dropping it, .45 is too powerful for some people).

If you want to buy another firearm for home, a shotgun is actually not a bad way to go for several reasons.  #1 is that only a complete idiot hears the shuck of a shotgun and keeps coming.  #2 is that a shotgun firing shot does not have much travel to it.  It is highly unlikely to get out of the room you fire it in and have any effect left in it (were as a rifle bullet or even a 9mm could travel many blocks if errantly fired). and #3, less aim required.  

The downfall is the need to maneuver a long barrel in close quarters (which is why the military has carbines for urban combat), but the weighting of the other points is why a shotgun rests in my closet.  
- - -

The reason charges are being filed is because "stand your ground" requires an individual to take reasonable measures to avoid conflict and has an absolute burden to not instigate conflict (force may be used "if force is necessary to prevent death, great bodily harm or the commission of a forcible felony").  In this instance it could be argued that a reasonable person would have kept driving instead of pulling over.  

On top of that, the circumstances of the conflict are unknown but Gumm has previously stated that the now-dead man tailgated him so he turned into the lot.  Here we get into nuisances, if he turned away trying to avoid conflict or if he did so to confront the tailgater.  Upon exiting the vehicle did he exacerbate the situation or try to calm it down? Was there a threat of great bodily harm or just some shouting?

It technically is not relevant, but the man that was killed only has traffic convictions on his record in Oklahoma (1993 no license, 1991 seat belt, and a 2007 speeding ticket [2 weeks before killed]).  I don't know the facts and I'm not sure the DA does either.  Which is why we need a jury to decide what happened.  

Gumm is charged with 1st degree manslaughter:

quote:Homicide is manslaughter in the first degree in the following cases:

1. When perpetrated without a design to effect death by a person while engaged in the commission of a misdemeanor.

2. When perpetrated without a design to effect death, and in a heat of passion, but in a cruel and unusual manner, or by means of a dangerous weapon; unless it is committed under such circumstances as constitute excusable or justifiable homicide.

3. When perpetrated unnecessarily either while resisting an attempt by the person killed to commit a crime, or after such attempt shall have failed.

Okla. Stat. tit. 21 sec. 711, available at http://www.oscn.net/applications/oscn/DeliverDocument.asp?CiteID=69314

According to section 715 the punishment is "not less than 4 years."
- - -
The facts:

According to the pretrial transcript, excerpts at http://209.184.242.25/common/printerfriendlystory.aspx?articleID=071024_1_A13_hThed64720 , there was testimony that the )now-dead) Turney turned in behind Gumm at the RIver park and blocked him in, he got out and accused Gumm of cutting him off and a shouting match ensued. During the argument Gumm contends that he backed away, walking around his car several times and was followed (everything is else is from other witnesses).  At one point Turney shoved Gumm and said "you're history" at which point Gumm took a step back and as Turney approached shot him one time in the chest.

Gumm remained on the scene and surrendered his (registered and permitted) firearm to responding officers, he was questioned and released. Turney's BAC was over the legal limit and the medical examiners report indicates he had methamphetamine in his system.
- - -

BUT, because I am not clear on what happened I can not complain about the prosecution.  A person is not free to shoot someone because they tailgated nor just because they were in an argument.  It seems to be that Gumm was in the right but something must have came to light 3 months after the fact to have them file charges.  If the jury finds that there was a reasonable threat and the force was necessary then Gumm will rightfully be vindicated.

One has to question the merits of a trial on a shooting when said trial doesn't take place for a year or more.  It will be a recitation of statements made previously and little more unless Gumm has to testify (I doubt it, given the above).  It will also be difficult to panel a jury after the county has had a year to hear trickles about the case.

[jne]

It certainly appears that Gumm was withing his rights from the info available. I hope he gets a fair review.

BTW - if you want to carry a 9mm, use ammo meant for personal protection.  They add stopping power to a 9mm and should mushroom on contact with the target.  I use Federal HydraShock.  There are other options (and likely much cheaper options).  I'd go with a top-quality equivalent- Who cares if its expensive? This caliber is super cheap anyway and its not like your plinking with them.

[Conan71]

+1 on what Cannon said.

Common wisdom is, if you really want to stop someone, you need a .40.  If you want to make them mad, shoot them with a 9mm.

If there are others living in your house a "stage coach gun" (legal short-barrelled shotgun- not great for hunting!) is good home protection and will be most likely to keep all it's shot in one room.  

Though Cannon is right, nothing will stop an intruder cold in his tracks like the sound of a 12 ga. shell being jacked into the chamber.  Unmistakeable sound.

I primarily own guns for target shooting with some friends and it's a safe place to park money for an extended period if you buy it right.  Home protection is another reason (Yes I do buy from registered dealers and have the required paperwork filled out).

Conceal carry is only required if you intend to keep a loaded pistol in your car or carry it on you when out in public.  You have the right to have a pistol in your home.  If you do not have a conceal carry permit, make sure it is unloaded and put it in your trunk prior to transporting it to the range or wherever.

Based on the law though, the gun has to be concealable on your body which pretty much means a .32 (I highly recommend the Beretta Tomcat or .25 Bobcat) or a very short 9mm are about the biggest you will be able to conceal on your body except in the dead of winter. Walther PPK is another one which is easy to conceal (James Bond anyone?).  The short barrel means they are also only good for pretty short-range work.  My belief is if you can keep an attacker further than 10-15 feet, you need not fire your weapon unless you are about to get trapped.

It's recommended you take the conceal-carry course with a semi-automatic pistol, as that will authorize you with revolvers as well.  Taking the course with a revolver or Derringer will not qualify you to carry a semi-automatic.

If you are considering gun ownership and have never owned one, you should take the conceal carry even if you don't intend to "take it with you."

[tulsacyclist]

What these guys are saying is great valuable info. I will say that I don't want to turn this into a caliber debate but my wife and I both carry a Glock 19 (9mm) and Glock 26 (9mm) respectively and I do not worry about the 9mm round not stopping the intended target. We use Cor-Bon self defense rounds. We also have a variety of other options around the house for intruder defense.

Either way, be familiar with your firearm and practice frequently and you will be able to hit your intended target and deliver the damage needed to stop him... As long as you aren't using a slingshot.

Oh, and the place my wife and I went for our CCW course was TDSA. (www.tdsatulsa.com) Marshall Luton is a TPD officer who employs some fantastic instructors at TDSA. His class is not the cheapest, but it is well worth the $100. The Oklahoma CCW curriculum does not require any teaching of how to actually use the gun or anything but he does cover some of this in his course. I'd suggest if you are new to firearms that you check into his other courses to get a better understanding of your firearm.

Good luck!

[Conan71]

tulsacyclist- .40 vs. 9mm is a purely anecdotal comment from "gun snobs" I was repeating.  I own both plus a .25 Bobcat.  There are lots of people taking the eternal dirt nap who got hit by one 9mm slug.  My S & W .40 just happens to be the one I keep convenient in the closet.

I'm not paranoid about a home invasion, but if it ever happens I sure as hell am going to exercise my legal right to protect myself and my family.

Oh and Tim- about the stagecoach gun vs. hand gun.  Less spackling is needed after a single shot from a pistol than a shotgun.  [}:)]

[tim huntzinger]

Gumm's attorneys want immunity under Stand Your Ground law [KJRH]

And in related news, Wanenmacher's Gun Show is this weekend.