1804 part 2

[TURobY]

What I can't understand is why we are debating the constitutionality of a law applying to illegal immigrants, when we should be debating the constitutionality of laws banning same-sex marriage for citizens, etc.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by grahambino


why stop there?
make the punishment fit the crime.
lethal injection is our only solution.
dey took yer jawb!
derp dee doo.

Back in the pile.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I've never once checked a contractors immigration status before letting him work.

But, that's your job now.  HB 1804 makes all of us part of the police apparatus.  If you know of someone here illegally, you must report it, or you could be guilty of a felony.  Ain't no such thing as an unknowing innocent anymore.  Bunch of fascist cr*p if you ask me.

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

Originally posted by cannon_fodder

... Bunch of fascist cr*p if you ask me.

Thank goodness no one asked you...

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

The key phrase appears to be "and subject to the jurisdiction thereof"...

EVERYBODY, other than a handful of folks with formal diplomatic immunity, is "subject to the jurisdiction" of the United States and the state that they are in.  There's no debate there.

Being subject to the jurisdiction of the United States doesn't confirm your citizenship, it confirms you are a person without immunity, and not  a diplomat, tiger, or sofa.  Thus, if you are not a diplomat, tiger, or sofa, and you were born here, then you are an American citizen.  

Anybody who argues against birthright generally hasn't thought things through.  What makes YOU an American citizen?

[pmcalk]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I've never once checked a contractors immigration status before letting him work.

But, that's your job now.  HB 1804 makes all of us part of the police apparatus.  If you know of someone here illegally, you must report it, or you could be guilty of a felony.  Ain't no such thing as an unknowing innocent anymore.  Bunch of fascist cr*p if you ask me.

You don't have to ask EVERYONE.  Just the ones that everyone assumes are illegal--you know, the brown ones.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

You don't have to ask EVERYONE.  Just the ones that everyone assumes are illegal--you know, the brown ones.

Shhhh.  This is not a racist law.

[midtownnewbie]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

It would be interesting to see what the burden of proof is.  I've never once checked a contractors immigration status before letting him work.  I've never checked with my mechanic to see if he is legal.  This summer, a neighbor kid was pushing a mower and a gas can down the street and mowed my lawn for $15 - I failed to check his immigration status.

Seriously, has anyone here had a plumber show up and ask for his social security card (which would take a good 5 minutes to fake well enough to fool 95% of the population anyway)?  I never have.  

What about sub contractors?  If I hire a roofer and have him tender his SS card am I clear, or do I have to check the entire crew?  What if he needs a crane to get the work done, do I have to flag down the crane operator?  Recently I had BestBuy deliver a new dish washer, I did not ask for proof of citizenship.

If they don't have "proof" on them do I just deny them work or am I required to hold them at gunpoint until the cops come?  When the cops come, is that counted as "work" on my property for which I have to check their citizen status?  Hey, what about firemen?  I don't want no stinking Mexican firemen saving my property only so it can get confiscated.

The systems broken. Forcing people to question each other isn't going to fix it.

Best post I've ever read on here!

[guido911]

quote:Originally posted by midtownnewbie

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

It would be interesting to see what the burden of proof is.  I've never once checked a contractors immigration status before letting him work.  I've never checked with my mechanic to see if he is legal.  This summer, a neighbor kid was pushing a mower and a gas can down the street and mowed my lawn for $15 - I failed to check his immigration status.

Seriously, has anyone here had a plumber show up and ask for his social security card (which would take a good 5 minutes to fake well enough to fool 95% of the population anyway)?  I never have.  

What about sub contractors?  If I hire a roofer and have him tender his SS card am I clear, or do I have to check the entire crew?  What if he needs a crane to get the work done, do I have to flag down the crane operator?  Recently I had BestBuy deliver a new dish washer, I did not ask for proof of citizenship.

If they don't have "proof" on them do I just deny them work or am I required to hold them at gunpoint until the cops come?  When the cops come, is that counted as "work" on my property for which I have to check their citizen status?  Hey, what about firemen?  I don't want no stinking Mexican firemen saving my property only so it can get confiscated.

The systems broken. Forcing people to question each other isn't going to fix it.

Best post I've ever read on here!

That's all we need, CF with an inflated ego.[}:)]

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by pmcalk

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I've never once checked a contractors immigration status before letting him work.

But, that's your job now.  HB 1804 makes all of us part of the police apparatus.  If you know of someone here illegally, you must report it, or you could be guilty of a felony.  Ain't no such thing as an unknowing innocent anymore.  Bunch of fascist cr*p if you ask me.

You don't have to ask EVERYONE.  Just the ones that everyone assumes are illegal--you know, the brown ones.

Okay, you really got me laughing with that one. [}:)]

[Wrinkle]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Wrinkle, what might be more compelling is the phrase:

quote:nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws

Note, it does not say "any citizen" or "person born here" or "them."  It says "any person."  The prior passage specifies "citizens of the United States" and thus we can tell that the author knew how to distinguish between citizens and everyone.  That is usually the basis for providing rights to non-citizens that are in the United States.

There's that 'jurisdiction' word again.

See prior posting.

But, does 'equal protection under the law' extend 'Constitutional Rights' of citizens to anyone here? I think not, though some 'rights' are basic and apply to all, not all of them.

In general, I think the Constitution meant if they are arrested for a crime, or the victim of one, our existing laws will be applied equally.

It does not intend to say they can vote, for example.

[rwarn17588]

<Wrinkle says:

But, does 'equal protection under the law' extend 'Constitutional Rights' of citizens to anyone here?

<end clip>

Yes.

Next question.

[Chicken Little]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

There's that 'jurisdiction' word again.

See prior posting.

But, does 'equal protection under the law' extend 'Constitutional Rights' of citizens to anyone here? I think not, though some 'rights' are basic and apply to all, not all of them.

In general, I think the Constitution meant if they are arrested for a crime, or the victim of one, our existing laws will be applied equally.

It does not intend to say they can vote, for example.

The right to vote has nothing to do with it.  Many felons can't vote.  Does this mean that their children aren't citizens?

If you are born here to persons who do not enjoy diplomatic immunity, you are an American citizen.  I'm presuming you are not a naturalized citizen, and so, this is the one and only claim that you yourself have to US citizenship.  It's your birthright...and the birthright of them people (insert euphemism here), too.

[Conan71]

quote:Originally posted by Chicken Little

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

There's that 'jurisdiction' word again.

See prior posting.

But, does 'equal protection under the law' extend 'Constitutional Rights' of citizens to anyone here? I think not, though some 'rights' are basic and apply to all, not all of them.

In general, I think the Constitution meant if they are arrested for a crime, or the victim of one, our existing laws will be applied equally.

It does not intend to say they can vote, for example.

The right to vote has nothing to do with it.  Many felons can't vote.  Does this mean that their children aren't citizens?

If you are born here to persons who do not enjoy diplomatic immunity, you are an American citizen.  I'm presuming you are not a naturalized citizen, and so, this is the one and only claim that you yourself have to US citizenship.

Same old argument, eh CL?  Why are you bringing it up here?  The discussion isn't about native-born citizens, it's about the ones who migrated here illegally and the government seizing the property of others due to them.

[we vs us]

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

But, does 'equal protection under the law' extend 'Constitutional Rights' of citizens to anyone here? I think not, though some 'rights' are basic and apply to all, not all of them.

The 14th amendment doesn't extend privileges to non-citizens, but it does guarantee equal protection to all "persons."  So no, non-citizens don't get to vote. But I assume that it does prevent the creation of a second-class category of person-hood, which seems to be what 1804 is seeking to do.

Text from Wikipedia

quote: Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.