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Hillary Clinton

Started by HoneySuckle, February 10, 2008, 07:23:49 PM

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guido911

#15
February 11, 2008, 04:24:10 PM
quote:
Originally posted by izmophonik

quote:
Originally posted by guido911

quote:
Originally posted by HoneySuckle

Interesting reading.  Thanks for giving me your opinions.  

Hillary is a strong woman, one with "cajones" and there are men who have a problem with that.


Actually, it's the "vast, right wing conspiracy" that worked in the travel office and who are named after the first person who conquered Everest that are against Hillary


Edmund?


Yup. I know you know that, according to Hillary Clinton, she was named after Sir Edmund Hillary (even though he did not climb Everest and thus become famous until after she was born...).
Someone get Hoss a pacifier.

rwarn17588

#16
February 11, 2008, 04:34:45 PM
I think the so-called Hillary hatred is way overstated.

That said, I think the reason Obama is doing so well lately is simply because he's a more talented politician than Hillary.

Back in Illinois, a fellow I knew who was tight in Democratic circles told me about him when he was a nobody in 2003 and that I'd better keep an eye on him ... that he was going places and the skies were the limit.

Needless to say, I was skeptical about a fellow with an African name winning over the Land of Lincoln. But he did it -- he was getting votes not only in usual strongholds like Chicago, but from dirt farmers downstate who'd rarely ever see a black man.

My wife says Obama is "Senator Paul Simon with charisma." Anyone who knows anything about Illinois politics knows that is high praise indeed.

That doesn't mean Obama's going to win the nomination, but the fact he's overcome so much of Clinton's immense name recognition speaks volumes about how well-run his campaign has been.

USRufnex

#17
February 12, 2008, 09:54:59 PM
I suppose the simple answer is that there are male chauvenist pigs who hate Hillary Clinton because she's a woman.  Or that "them thar femi-nazis" will support her no matter what...

For me, I think she's a sellout (follow the money), and I really don't like the idea of being "triangulated" again...

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap_campaignplus/20080213/ap_ca/on_deadline_clinton_7;_ylt=AjcYr4Skvboz5RJo9VoHn59h24cA

Chickens come home to roost By RON FOURNIER, Associated Press Writer

Obama has won 23 of 35 contests, earning the majority of delegates awarded on the basis of election results. The remaining 796 delegates are elected officials and party leaders whose votes are not tied to state primaries or caucuses; thus, they are dubbed "superdelegates."

And they are not all super fans of the Clintons.

Some are labor leaders still angry that Bill Clinton championed the North American Free Trade Agreement as part of his centrist agenda.

Some are social activists who lobbied unsuccessfully to get him to veto welfare reform legislation, a talking point for his 1996 re-election campaign.

Some served in Congress when the Clintons dismissed their advice on health care reform in 1993. Some called her a bully at the time.

Some are DNC members who saw the party committee weakened under the Clintons and watched President Bush use the White House to build up the Republican National Committee.

Some are senators who had to defend Clinton for lying to the country about his affair with Monica Lewinsky.

Some are allies of former Vice President Al Gore who still believe the Lewinsky scandal cost him the presidency in 2000.

Some are House members (or former House members) who still blame Clinton for Republicans seizing control of the House in 1994.

Some are donors who paid for the Clintons' campaigns and his presidential library.

Some are folks who owe the Clintons a favor but still feel betrayed or taken for granted. Could that be why Bill Richardson, a former U.N. secretary and energy secretary in the Clinton administration, refused to endorse her even after an angry call from the former president? "What," Bill Clinton reportedly asked Richardson, "isn't two Cabinet posts enough?"

And some just want something new. They appreciate the fact that Clinton was a successful president and his wife was an able partner, but they never loved the couple as much as they feared them.

The Politics of Parsing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qggO5yY7RAo

FOTD

#18
February 13, 2008, 12:39:29 PM
The ick factor! You will see this reprinted here at TNF but no other publication in Tulsa...

A Flawed Feminist Test
         


By MAUREEN DOWD
Published: February 13, 2008
WASHINGTON

Skip to next paragraph

Fred R. Conrad/The New York Times
Maureen Dowd

Go to Columnist Page » Russell Berman, a young reporter for The New York Sun, trailed Bill Clinton around Maryland all day Sunday. The former president was on his best behavior, irritating the smattering of press.

After Bill's last speech at Leisure World retirement community in Silver Spring, Berman interviewed two women in the audience.

Elaine Sirkis, 77, an Obama supporter, confided that she just isn't sure she's ready for a woman president. Betty Conway, 83, a Hillary supporter, confided that she just isn't sure she's ready for a black president.

As Conway walked away, Sirkis smiled sheepishly. "I'm sorry," she told Berman sweetly about her friend. "She's a bigot."

We're not just in the most vertiginous election of our lives. We're in another national seminar on gender and race that is teaching us about who we are as we figure out what we want America to be.

It's not yet clear which prejudice will infect the presidential contest more — misogyny or racism.

Many women I talk to, even those who aren't particularly fond of Hillary, feel empathy for her, knowing that any woman in a world dominated by men has to walk a tightrope between femininity and masculinity, strength and vulnerability.

They see double standards they hate — when male reporters described Hillary's laugh as "a cackle" or her voice as "grating," when Rush Limbaugh goes off on her wrinkles or when male pundits seem gleeful to write her political obituary. Several women I know, who argue with their husbands about Hillary, refer with a shudder to the "Kill the Witch" syndrome.

In a webcast, prestidigitator Penn Jillette talks about a joke he has begun telling in his show. He thinks the thunderous reaction it gets from audiences shows that Hillary no longer has a shot.

The joke goes: "Obama is just creaming Hillary. You know, all these primaries, you know. And Hillary says it's not fair, because they're being held in February, and February is Black History Month. And unfortunately for Hillary, there's no White ***** Month."

Of course, jokes like that — even Jillette admits it's offensive — are exactly what may give Hillary a shot. When the usually invulnerable Hillary seems vulnerable, many women, even ones who don't want her to win, cringe at the idea of seeing her publicly humiliated — again.

And since women — and some men — tend to be more protective when she is down, it is impossible to rule out a rally, especially if voters start to see Obama, after his eight-contest rout, as that maddening archetypal figure: the glib golden boy who slides through on charm and a smile.

Those close to Hillary say she's feeling blue. It's an unbearable twist of fate to spend all those years in the shadow of one Secretariat, only to have another gallop past while you're plodding toward the finish line.

I know that the attacks against powerful women can be harsh and personal and unfair, enough to make anyone cry.

But Hillary is not the best test case for women. We'll never know how much of the backlash is because she's a woman or because she's this woman or because of the ick factor of returning to the old Clinton dysfunction.

While Obama aims to transcend race, Hillary often aims to use gender to her advantage, or to excuse mistakes. In 1994, after her intransigence and secrecy-doomed health care plan, she told The Wall Street Journal that she was "a gender Rorschach test."

"If somebody has a female boss for the first time, and they've never experienced that," she said, "well, maybe they can't take out their hostility against her so they turn it on me."

As a possible first Madame President, Hillary is a flawed science experiment because you can't take Bill out of the equation. Her story is wrapped up in her marriage, and her marriage is wrapped up in a series of unappetizing compromises, arrangements and dependencies.

Instead of carving out a separate identity for herself, she has become more entwined with Bill. She is running bolstered by his record and his muscle. She touts her experience as first lady, even though her judgment during those years on issue after issue was poor. She says she's learned from her mistakes, but that's not a compelling pitch.

As a senator, she was not a leading voice on important issues, and her Iraq vote was about her political viability.

She told New York magazine's John Heilemann that before Iowa taught her that she had to show her soft side, "I really believed I had to prove in this race from the very beginning that a woman could be president and a woman could be commander in chief. I thought that was my primary mission."

If Hillary fails, it will be her failure, not ours. "

HoneySuckle

#19
February 14, 2008, 09:53:32 AM
quote:
Originally posted by izmophonik

HoneySuckle seems to think this is a sex based hate.  I don't believe that is the case.  I think the folks to dislike Senator Clinton do so because they do not trust her (based on actions in the past) and they think she simply pandors to her followers rather than actually wanting to make a difference for them.




Yes, I do believe some of it is gender based because of the people I have talked to (older males/females) who are really upset to think that a woman MIGHT be president.  

I do understand though that for some it is about trust, but which politician can anyone trust?

As for pandering to her followers, don't they all do that?

 

restored2x

#20
February 14, 2008, 11:11:34 AM
I don't believe I've ever responded to a political posting here or anywhere.

In my opinion, we are all looking at this from the wrong side. As much as I've read and watched on TV or heard on radio, I haven't heard anyone bring this point up.

It IS a matter of gender. My concern would not be what I think about a woman president, or if what I think is PC or not. The real issue nobody is talking about is that this female would represent our country to the world. That might fly is Israel, Canada, France, or even South America (to a lesser degree) - but with our Muslim rivals this represents a giant problem.

The biggest problem is that our standing in the world has changed. We are viewed as bullies and invaders. This is a problem we need to fix. Would having a female hurt us more with those groups that oppress women in their own countries? Would muslim leaders actually seriously sit down with a female to discuss political and cultural issues? Women are viewed as a little more than property in those cultures.

Why is nobody talking about this? Wouldn't this be an issue? I've heard plenty of people say, "The world hates us because of Bush!" Maybe rightfully so - but would the world love us more because of Hillary? Or less?

Having a woman president may be cool to us - but we are not the world.

rwarn17588

#21
February 14, 2008, 12:28:25 PM
Interesting question, restored.

I guess my response would be to those who object to a female commander-in-chief would be this:

Grow up.

Religions HAVE to change with the times, or else they eventually get consigned to the dustbin of history.

If a female commander-in-chief forces fundamentalists around the world to rethink or reconsider beliefs, all the better. It's been sorely needed, anyway.

And it's not like Hillary, if she's elected, would be the first. Maggie Thatcher was running Britain 20 years ago, and it seemed that many nations then were mature enough at the time to handle it. I don't see why things would be any different.

FOTD

#22
February 14, 2008, 01:39:15 PM
But we are One World....one love ..... let's get together and, for a change, feel alright!

waterboy

#23
February 14, 2008, 02:58:41 PM
What the Muslim world feels about women is their problem...period. Did we feel that electing an actor to president, twice, was thumbing our noses at Russia who had no real film industry?![:D] Seriously, no pandering to other countries needs or wants should enter into who we choose to lead.

restored2x

#24
February 14, 2008, 03:02:00 PM
That sounds awfully "ugly American" and ethnocentric. We expect the other cultures of the world to adopt our worldview because we see them as immature?

Will that be our official foreign policy? Grow up, Iraq. Grow up, Iran. Grow up, Saudi Arabia. Grow up, North Korea. Grow up, China. Grow up, Indonesia. Grow up, Africa.

Isn't that kinda like the missionaries having bush women wear bras and such?

Can we really expect respect and progress from people who arrest and kill women for appearing in public with a male who is not a family member? Or....

Nevermind.

waterboy

#25
February 14, 2008, 08:00:23 PM
I'm confused with your response. I don't expect other cultures fo the world to adopt our view at all. Our foreign policy is totally separate from our decision to elect a woman or a minority to lead us. If thats ethnocentric, then I don't know how. We simply don't consult  with Europe or the Middle East when deciding who to lead us even if they are offended by it. Why would we? For heavens sake our Secretary of State is a black woman! If they can live with that I think we're okay.

rwarn17588

#26
February 14, 2008, 10:54:33 PM
<restored2x wrote:

We expect the other cultures of the world to adopt our worldview because we see them as immature?

<end clip>

Yes.

If they see that we have our share of female leaders and that we're an internally peaceful and prosperous country, then yes, it might occur to them that perhaps they've taken the wrong attitude on things. It happens. It's called learning, and it's called maturity.

guido911

#28
February 15, 2008, 09:54:57 AM
Someone get Hoss a pacifier.

Wingnut

#29
February 15, 2008, 11:42:50 AM
I neglected to add that she really is rather photogenic.......
shrillary pics
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