Jenks teens might be charged with identity theft

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

TUalum0982 - the school has authority to do whatever it deems necessary to maintain discipline for its students.  Allowing them make web pages openly mocking the teachers certainly would degrade discipline AND harm that teachers ability to teach.  It teaches respect for an authority figure - what would happen if you did this to your boss?

I have no problem with schools taking action on such things, but I do not see that this is a police matter.

So if these same kids were to go and toilet paper another student's house, the jenks admin would have the authority to suspend them even though it wouldn't have been on school time or property?  I have no problem with the admin disciplining my student for matters that happen at school, but disciplining for matters outside of school? I believe that is a stretch.  And comparing that to doing the same thing about my boss is comparing apples to oranges.  They employee me and pay me to do a certain task, alot different then students going to school.  Just my two cents, but if it didnt happen on school time or with a school computer, I would be furious if my child was suspended for this incident.  Let the parent's handle this, not the jenks admin.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

Apparently Floyd and TUalum0982 have far more inside information then the rest of us to determine no crime has been committed.

Please!  Tell us how you know more then the rest of us?  What first hand information do you have that says the police are wasting their time and no crime has been committed?  

Or, are you like the rest of us and only going based on what you read in the press.  We all know how reliable they can be.

I clearly said this is bad behavior.  I completely agree that it should be punished and that the school has the discretion to do so, at least to a reasonable degree.

BUT, going from what the article said and what I assume happened, there's just nothing remotely suggesting that a crime was committed.  These kids put up fake MySpace profiles on the internet in order to express their disdain for their teachers.  The article states:

quote:Just the thought of putting jokes and insults up like that, for the whole world to see, disgusts both parents and school staff. What the kids may not have realized--that behavior could get them arrested. Campus Police Chief Perry Marler.

"If they in fact said they were a teacher, that is identity theft."

Perry Marler doesn't know what he's talking about.  Here's the applicable Oklahoma statute:

quote: §21-1533.1.
 
  It is unlawful for any person to willfully and with fraudulent intent obtain the name, address, social security number, date of birth, or any other personal identifying information of another person, living or dead, with intent to use, sell, or allow any other person to use or sell such personal identifying information to obtain or attempt to obtain credit, goods, property, or service in the name of the other person without the consent of that person.

It is unlawful for any person to use with fraudulent intent the personal identity of another person, living or dead, or any information relating to the personal identity of another person, living or dead, to obtain or attempt to obtain credit or anything of value.

Any person convicted of violating any provision of this section shall be guilty of identity theft.  Identity theft is a felony offense.

NOTHING in this story remotely suggests violation of this statute.  What the story DOES suggest is a Campus Police Chief who is attempting to intimidate some kids who offended some teachers.

Now, as far as defamation--that's potentially more of an issue.  But defamation is not a crime, it's a tort--a civil offense.  And even then, opinion is a defense to defamation.  If I say, "Mr. Smith is a poopyhead," that's an opinion.  But if I say, "Mr. Smith is a child molester," that's a fact.  But there's more--a plaintiff has to show that the untrue statement damaged him.  So if this MySpace page were to call "Mr. Smith" a child molester AND that led to his losing his teaching job, then we MIGHT have defamation.  Emotional injury can be considered damages, but those aren't easy to prove.

So, Wilbur, wake up and see this story for what it is: rude behavior by some teens, and overreaction by the Campus Keystone Kops.

Look at the police as a company and the citizens as customers.  When a customer requests an investigation, the company will do so, THEN decide if a crime has been committed.  Not wait for a couple people from Tulsa Now to decide what is a crime and what isn't based on no facts or personal knowledge.

[Breadburner]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

How would we feel if this didn't involved students and teachers? What if this had been adults against adults? If this had been any two groups of adults, would it then be identity theft?

Think of two groups of businessmen, or competing restaurants, or even home-owners associations. If my neighborhood association made up some fake websites that trashed the neighbors on the other side of town, would that be identity theft? Or worse, could it be prosecutable as liable or slander?

The kids made terrible personal remarks and then encouraged others to pile on more insults. Yes, they are just kids. But this could also be a good time to set an example so other kids can learn from it as well.

A young teen girl committed suicide because of something similar.....So these kids should be taught a lesson on how serious this is....Your remarks were spot on....

[Paul]

Oh brother, here we go again.  I wonder what in the world ever got under TU Alum's cap to cause such hatred for all things Jenks.

First of all, Perry Marler is the Assistant Chief of Police, not the Chief.  One fine example that the media doesn't always get it right.  

Tulsa World staff asserted the term "identity theft", it was not mentioned by anyone from Jenks Schools.

The victims DID ask the Campus Police to investigate.  The victims are the teachers and administrator who were portrayed on the false sites as child molesters and degenerates.  Another victim is the Jenks Public School District, who most definitely has a horse in this race.  It is also the District's reputation at stake here.

The Campus Police conducted the investigation of the actual acts commited.  The Tulsa Police Department has the only real cyber crimes unit in the area, and as they often do for other agencies, they assisted with technical investigative support.  

The actual criminal acts being investigated can be found in Oklahoma Statutes, Title 21, Section 1953, known as the Computer Crimes act.  

While its possible the media reveals more dirt about Jenks kids than those from other areas, that may have something to do with the fact that Jenks actually DOES something about misbehavior.  You only here about it in the media when something gets done about it.  I visit Union regularly.  It looks far more like a prison movie than a school campus.  Gang colors are prominently displayed, and nothing is done to enforce behavior standards.  It is not like that at Jenks.  

TU Alum, I apologize personally for whatever wrong was done to you by Jenks Public Schools and the Jenks Campus Police.  I know you graduated before I moved to the area.  It sounds like you've moved on into a successful adult life.  Whatever happened, it apparently didn't destroy your life.  Give them a break, alright?  Everyone has a job to do, even Campus Police.

As for the kids involved in this incident, and others at Jenks Schools, enforcement of laws is almost always a LAST RESORT.  Suspension, counseling, and other forms of behavior adjustment are almost always tried first, usually repeatedly, before any law enforcement action is taken against a student.  There are exceptions of course, for highly dangerous or drug-related activities.  That's just how it has to be with those types of offenses.  If Campus Police in Jenks arrested every person the law says can be arrested, they'd need 40 officers, not just 6.  

And by the way, students, parents, and school staff all sign agreements at the beginning of each school year.  They agree the students will abide by school policies or face clearly outlined disciplinary action.  Attempting to destroy the personal reputation of a school administrator and of the District itself, probably violates one or more of those policies.  I'd be willing to bet the suspensions were clearly stated in the policies as the punishment for that sort of action.  That is well within the purview of the District to determine, and within the rights of the District to enforce.  Oklahoma law says so.  

This case is now about two weeks old.  You haven't heard anything else about it for a bit.  I'd imagine you never will hear a media story about this incident again.  You know why I think that?  Because I believe the suspensions will be the last action taken against the students on the matter.  Sometimes the looming possibility of criminal charges takes the wind out of the sails when it comes to appealing a suspension.  Without an appeal, the media loses interest, the story fades away, and the District can return to what it does best, educating children.  So, a criminal investigation can serve many purposes, not just the obvious one, arresting the offender.  

Of course, it may be determined during the investigation that no crime was commited....

[CoffeeBean]

Title 21, Section 1953(A)( states:

quote: A. It shall be unlawful to:
8. Willfully use a computer, computer system, or computer network to annoy, abuse, threaten, or harass another person;

On its face, the law appears unconstitutionally vague.  Annoy?  Harrass?  Even assuming viability of statute, what purpose did the fake myspace page serve?  Did the kids design the pages to annoy the teachers?  Harass them?  From the TW piece, the teachers were completely oblivious to the pages until informed by another student.  How did the page annoy or harrass the teacher when it existed outside their own conscience?  At the very least any annoyance would be tangential to whatever the initial motivation was in creating the page.  

This is beyond the pale of stupidity.  I don't want to hear the TPD clamor for additional funding when they clearly have nothing better to do.

[Paul]

Well Coffee Bean, you make a fine point.  The law isn't always as clear as police and prosecutors want it to be.  That's why police agencies have to spend millions of dollars in equipment, training, and man hours investigating reported violations.  The investigation usually determines whether or not a law was violated.  Then the DA determines whether it can or will be prosecuted.  If the investigations aren't even done, how will any crime be punished.  

For the record, if you don't like the laws, there's a way to change them.  Stop electing the people who write the laws you think are ludicrous.  

I think the story reported here only said an investigation was being conducted, not that anyone had been charged.  I think even that much was speculation on the part of the writer.  I think "technical assistance" is really the most accurate description of what TPD did, and that was at the request of the Campus Police.  Again, you haven't heard a peep about prosecution, which probably means there won't be one.  

As for defunding the TPD, here here.  I say let's do it.  Then we can get down to some "survival of the fittest" stuff and dispense with the nonsense.  No more cops.  Whoever among us is the strongest, toughest, and meanest can just take what he wants from the rest of us.  Let's give it a whirl and see who comes out on top....

[CoffeeBean]

Paul,

The tone of the last paragraph of your last post is very sarcastic.  Sarcasm, of course, is a type of verbal irony intended to insult or wound and, as such, is highly annoying to me, a person of unusually fragile sensibilities.

Alas, because the statute does not first require notice to you, or condition a violation upon any objective standard, you sir, are a Cyber Criminal.  Hark!  TPD!  Please expend millions of dollars to investigate the Cyber Criminal Paul before he violates again!  

I jest of course, but I think you get my point.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by TUalum0982


So if these same kids were to go and toilet paper another student's house, the jenks admin would have the authority to suspend them even though it wouldn't have been on school time or property?  I have no problem with the admin disciplining my student for matters that happen at school, but disciplining for matters outside of school? I believe that is a stretch.  And comparing that to doing the same thing about my boss is comparing apples to oranges.  They employee me and pay me to do a certain task, alot different then students going to school.  Just my two cents, but if it didnt happen on school time or with a school computer, I would be furious if my child was suspended for this incident.  Let the parent's handle this, not the jenks admin.

Schools have the authority to set whatever disciplinary policies they deem appropriate.  Very often these include behaviors to be followed outside of school.  Public school enforcement of these policies is limited by the federal mandate to educate all children, but it does not preclude some form of punishment for unacceptable behavior.

And why not?  That's how the really real world works.  If I do something to subvert my boss I will lose my job.  If I get arrested the Bar Association will want to talk to me.  If I TP (or insert adult form of petty vandalism here) it will have consequences at work.

Not too mention, I'd rather have schools deal with petty crimes like this than the police.  Assuming it is a kid with college or vocational aspirations an arrest is a serious deal.  For TPing someones house or posting a stupid webpage... If my son did this I would be more upset by his stupidity than the schools punishment of him.  

Breadburner:

So because some teenager somewhere committed suicide when she was punished we should no longer punish teenagers?  Seems like seriously flawed logic unless I'm missing something.

[CoffeeBean]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

And why not?  That's how the really real world works.  If I do something to subvert my boss I will lose my job.  If I get arrested the Bar Association will want to talk to me.  If I TP (or insert adult form of petty vandalism here) it will have consequences at work.

Education, unlike your employment, is compulsory - a material distinction.  Further distinguishing the anaolgy is the fact that Jenks is a public entity, subject to  more restictions than your private employer.  

I'm not saying the kids should escape the consequences of their action, but full-blown suspension is a bit much.  Surely the fine educators at Jenks can fashion a measured response as punishment.  Maybe demonstrate their own creativity?  

Suspension seems like a nuclear response to a small-arms issue.  

No wonder these kids grow up and sue over who gets to play on which football team.

[cannon_fodder]

I am not sure what the schools response is, but a Saturday school would seem appropriate to me.  I do not think this action should be allowed to negatively affect their education much (a suspension can).  It was essentially harmless act that does need to be punished, but not escalated.

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by Paul

Oh brother, here we go again.  I wonder what in the world ever got under TU Alum's cap to cause such hatred for all things Jenks.

First of all, Perry Marler is the Assistant Chief of Police, not the Chief.  One fine example that the media doesn't always get it right.  

Tulsa World staff asserted the term "identity theft", it was not mentioned by anyone from Jenks Schools.

The victims DID ask the Campus Police to investigate.  The victims are the teachers and administrator who were portrayed on the false sites as child molesters and degenerates.  Another victim is the Jenks Public School District, who most definitely has a horse in this race.  It is also the District's reputation at stake here.

The Campus Police conducted the investigation of the actual acts commited.  The Tulsa Police Department has the only real cyber crimes unit in the area, and as they often do for other agencies, they assisted with technical investigative support.  

The actual criminal acts being investigated can be found in Oklahoma Statutes, Title 21, Section 1953, known as the Computer Crimes act.  

While its possible the media reveals more dirt about Jenks kids than those from other areas, that may have something to do with the fact that Jenks actually DOES something about misbehavior.  You only here about it in the media when something gets done about it.  I visit Union regularly.  It looks far more like a prison movie than a school campus.  Gang colors are prominently displayed, and nothing is done to enforce behavior standards.  It is not like that at Jenks.  

TU Alum, I apologize personally for whatever wrong was done to you by Jenks Public Schools and the Jenks Campus Police.  I know you graduated before I moved to the area.  It sounds like you've moved on into a successful adult life.  Whatever happened, it apparently didn't destroy your life.  Give them a break, alright?  Everyone has a job to do, even Campus Police.

As for the kids involved in this incident, and others at Jenks Schools, enforcement of laws is almost always a LAST RESORT.  Suspension, counseling, and other forms of behavior adjustment are almost always tried first, usually repeatedly, before any law enforcement action is taken against a student.  There are exceptions of course, for highly dangerous or drug-related activities.  That's just how it has to be with those types of offenses.  If Campus Police in Jenks arrested every person the law says can be arrested, they'd need 40 officers, not just 6.  

And by the way, students, parents, and school staff all sign agreements at the beginning of each school year.  They agree the students will abide by school policies or face clearly outlined disciplinary action.  Attempting to destroy the personal reputation of a school administrator and of the District itself, probably violates one or more of those policies.  I'd be willing to bet the suspensions were clearly stated in the policies as the punishment for that sort of action.  That is well within the purview of the District to determine, and within the rights of the District to enforce.  Oklahoma law says so.  

This case is now about two weeks old.  You haven't heard anything else about it for a bit.  I'd imagine you never will hear a media story about this incident again.  You know why I think that?  Because I believe the suspensions will be the last action taken against the students on the matter.  Sometimes the looming possibility of criminal charges takes the wind out of the sails when it comes to appealing a suspension.  Without an appeal, the media loses interest, the story fades away, and the District can return to what it does best, educating children.  So, a criminal investigation can serve many purposes, not just the obvious one, arresting the offender.  

Of course, it may be determined during the investigation that no crime was commited....

I have no anger against Jenks Public Schools or grudge to hold against them.  I received a fine education from 5th grade till I graduated in May of 2001.  You are wrong on one thing, I believe it was channel 8 who interviewed a Jenks Campus Police and I remember distinctly he himself said "if in fact they said they were a teacher, that is identity theft."  I whole heartedly disagree.  

Once again my opinion is if this didn't happen at school or on school property I don't think the school should have the authority to suspend my child.  I believe they deserve punishment, definitely.  We have choices and must suffer the consequences if the wrong ones are chosen, but suspension?  

Cannon Fodder once again you are comparing apples to oranges.  If a dr gets arrested for abusing his power (ie molesting children or writing excessive scripts) that is one thing.  If he is picked up for let's say loitering or drunk in public, I highly doubt he is going to lose his medical license.  If you were to go get a DUI I doubt you would lose your license to practice law, now if you violate ethics laws, you most definitely will.  See my point?

The parents in this situation should punish their child however they deem fit, not the school.  If the kids are out past curfew on a saturday night and get picked up by the cops and taken home, they should get detention from school? suspended? I don't believe its the authority of the school to punish my child outside of school.