Corrupt Tulsa Police officer

[TeeDub]

quote:Originally posted by sgrizzle
My $250 camera does hd video.

Yeah, but probably only 720p...  Not REAL HD video.

Besides, everyone knows that once a cop's car has a dashboard cam, it is no longer his word against yours...   And really, do you want to be the one who takes some power back away from a cop?

[Wilbur]

You can't buy an off-the-shelf camera and mount it in a car and have it bounce around all day and expect it to last.  That was the problem with the previous cameras.  Everything has to be ruggedized, just like the in-car lap-top computers.  Additionally, far more equipment has to be purchased to make the system effective, not hog up all the room inside the car (along with the rest of the equipment), have an in-car display, as well as an inside camera and have the ability to 'tivo'.

If you can do that for $250, please bid!

[TeeDub]

How about an off the shelf system already designed for in car use?  Maybe one of those systems the street racers use.  

Also, is there a real need to replay/watch from inside the car?   Why would cops need the ability in car to go back and review the footage?  There is no instant replay in real life, these are to protect the officer and the public, not to let an officer second guess his decisions.

[cannon_fodder]

I understand there are additional difficulties Wilbur, but for $7,000 they could replace the camera every couple of year for a decade and STILL save money.

Honestly, that kid I posted about a while back had audio and video on several angles.  

For that matter, here are links to dash mounted camera:
$90 includes camera and all attachments with mini DVR recorder http://www.stockmeupsales.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=204&HS=1&gclid=CIP1s6Cf4pECFQq8iQod01czdg

$450 includes display screen, remote control, swivel, and on.  Would need video export system:
http://www.rvprotectionproducts.com/index.php?p=product&id=1078&parent=192

$500
One that has video and records, made for truckers to defend themselves in accidents.  Has multiple audio and video in and out. In dash display.  Multiple recording modes etc.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Truckers-Mobile-Video-Recorder-Dash-Cam-Defense_W0QQitemZ280189481448QQihZ018QQcategoryZ48634QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem?refid=store

Here is one MADE for police.  
$3000
It is also used by the armed forces for base security.  It is HD, burns to a DVD, lock vault unit, auto zoom on license plates, manually or auto activation (run constantly or when sirens are flashing), 8.5 hours of internal memory, very small... MADE for police!
http://www.martelelectronics.com/mde.html?gclid=CM6_2Pef4pECFQaOggodhzEYfA

Here are a TON of simple solutions designed for use in a car.  From $80 to $360.
http://www.trafficsafetycam.com/catalog/c1_p1.html

- - -

I call BS on the $7000 price tag.  They must be looking for the latest greatest system.  I can't find one that costs that much when I'm trying to .  They may not be able to afford the best system out there.  But the $80 system I listed above would be far better than what they have now.  Certainly the $3000 system seems to have EVERYTHING one could want except real time uplinking - WHICH IS A WANT, not a need.

Apparently they need to drop some requirements from the contract or just seek units from retailers.

- - -

At the $7,000 level this seems to be a want not a need.  I understand a need for cameras, but it appears you don't need to spend $7K to get them.  I'll order the $3,000 camera's and install them for $2,000 each.  Saving the city $2K each and making me $2K each.  With 300 cars that's $600K for me and $600K for the city.

Seems fair.

If they don't want me to install them I expect a $500 each finders fee.  $150,000 to save over a million.  Good deal if you ask me.  I'll have to give you the address later as I'll probably have a new one after this deal goes down.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by TeeDub


How about an off the shelf system already designed for in car use?  Maybe one of those systems the street racers use.  

Also, is there a real need to replay/watch from inside the car?   Why would cops need the ability in car to go back and review the footage?  There is no instant replay in real life, these are to protect the officer and the public, not to let an officer second guess his decisions.

If Gus Spanos had a dashboard camera, officers could have reviewed it in the vehicle and got an accurate vehicle and suspect description.  If you don't remember, Ofc. Gus Spanos was shot in the head during a vehicle stop in 1993.

If Officer Scott Osborn had a dash mounted camera, officers could have reviewed the tape instantly and gave an accurate discription of Everado Valencia's vehicle. Ofc. Scott Osborn was lucky the bullet struck him in his vest or he would have been dead also.

Having to wait until the video is downloaded somewhere wastes time when you need the information quickly.

Also this video will be used for prosecution.  Officers should be able to review the tape in the vehicle because that is where they write their reports.

[TeeDub]

I was under the impression the officer called in the vehicle description and tag number before he ever got out of the car...   Is that not the case?

So no, I don't agree that an officer should have the right to review and therefore potentially destroy evidence.

He can review it at his desk, once it has been uploaded to a site server.

[MH2010]

quote:Originally posted by TeeDub


I was under the impression the officer called in the vehicle description and tag number before he ever got out of the car...   Is that not the case?

So no, I don't agree that an officer should have the right to review and therefore potentially destroy evidence.

He can review it at his desk, once it has been uploaded to a site server.

Officers give the license plate of a vehicle if they have one.  Some vehicles do not or they have paper tags.  Officers also may not see the driver of the vehicle when they are checking out on the radio.  What if they give the tag but it does not belong to the vehicle.  They will not know until it is ran thru teletype. Which would occur later in the stop after the initial contact.

Here is an example of when viewing the dashcam in the vehicle would be useful. You have three suspects lined up at the rear of their vehicle.  When you return to the three after running them, you notice a baggy of methamphetamine on the ground.  You think that one of the three suspects dropped the methamphetamine but you did not see it.  If you had dashcam review in your vehicle, you could review the tape and see which one dropped it while you were still at the location.

Most officers don't have desks. Their vehicle is their office.

What if you could review the video but not edit it?  Would you be okay with that?  The ones that are being tested now have that function.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by TeeDub


I was under the impression the officer called in the vehicle description and tag number before he ever got out of the car...   Is that not the case?

So no, I don't agree that an officer should have the right to review and therefore potentially destroy evidence.

He can review it at his desk, once it has been uploaded to a site server.

I would use it more to show to the traffic violator who doesn't believe they ran the stop sign/red light.  Simply walking them back to the car to show them the video saves everyone court time.

Not sure why you believe every officer would use the system to destroy evidence simply because they have a display in their car.  Where does that come from?

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I understand there are additional difficulties Wilbur, but for $7,000 they could replace the camera every couple of year for a decade and STILL save money.

Honestly, that kid I posted about a while back had audio and video on several angles.  

For that matter, here are links to dash mounted camera:
$90 includes camera and all attachments with mini DVR recorder http://www.stockmeupsales.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=204&HS=1&gclid=CIP1s6Cf4pECFQq8iQod01czdg

$450 includes display screen, remote control, swivel, and on.  Would need video export system:
http://www.rvprotectionproducts.com/index.php?p=product&id=1078&parent=192

$500
One that has video and records, made for truckers to defend themselves in accidents.  Has multiple audio and video in and out. In dash display.  Multiple recording modes etc.
http://cgi.ebay.com/Truckers-Mobile-Video-Recorder-Dash-Cam-Defense_W0QQitemZ280189481448QQihZ018QQcategoryZ48634QQtcZphotoQQcmdZViewItem?refid=store

Here is one MADE for police.  
$3000
It is also used by the armed forces for base security.  It is HD, burns to a DVD, lock vault unit, auto zoom on license plates, manually or auto activation (run constantly or when sirens are flashing), 8.5 hours of internal memory, very small... MADE for police!
http://www.martelelectronics.com/mde.html?gclid=CM6_2Pef4pECFQaOggodhzEYfA

Here are a TON of simple solutions designed for use in a car.  From $80 to $360.
http://www.trafficsafetycam.com/catalog/c1_p1.html

- - -

I call BS on the $7000 price tag.  They must be looking for the latest greatest system.  I can't find one that costs that much when I'm trying to .  They may not be able to afford the best system out there.  But the $80 system I listed above would be far better than what they have now.  Certainly the $3000 system seems to have EVERYTHING one could want except real time uplinking - WHICH IS A WANT, not a need.

Apparently they need to drop some requirements from the contract or just seek units from retailers.

- - -

At the $7,000 level this seems to be a want not a need.  I understand a need for cameras, but it appears you don't need to spend $7K to get them.  I'll order the $3,000 camera's and install them for $2,000 each.  Saving the city $2K each and making me $2K each.  With 300 cars that's $600K for me and $600K for the city.

Seems fair.

If they don't want me to install them I expect a $500 each finders fee.  $150,000 to save over a million.  Good deal if you ask me.  I'll have to give you the address later as I'll probably have a new one after this deal goes down.

I will simply say, if you can find a vendor who is willing to deal with the city and offer the prices you say are out there, please tell them to bid.  Departments across the US are spending tons of money for these systems because only a few companies want to bid to the specs provided.

Again, I believe $2.5M+ is what is being proposed/budgeted.

And, you can't mount things on a dashboard any more.  Airbags cause those things to go flying.

[TUalum0982]

quote:Originally posted by TeeDub


How about an off the shelf system already designed for in car use?  Maybe one of those systems the street racers use.  

Also, is there a real need to replay/watch from inside the car?   Why would cops need the ability in car to go back and review the footage?  There is no instant replay in real life, these are to protect the officer and the public, not to let an officer second guess his decisions.

actually there is.  What about the times when the officer is sitting in his car writing a ticket.  He doesn't see the passenger throw something out of the window.  He can go back and rewind and find out.  This has happened many many times.  It is just an extra set of eyes.  Especially for people who generally patrol on their own without backup (like OHP).

[cannon_fodder]

Airbags do not deploy from the center of the dash, they deploy from the steering wheel and face of the passenger side dash.  There is not reason to have an airbag in the center of the dash near the windshield.

Wilbur, I don't deny that the bids they gets are the best available.  What I am saying is that in order to draw such outrageous bids they must have some criteria in the package to make them so damn high.  If they really want this system, or need it, they need to reevaluate their priorities and adjust the bid accordingly.  The TPD is not the US Military, we can not just pork barrel and barrow our way to the best of everything (even though the military's systems cost $3,000 each).

Seriously, go find a vendor somewhere selling a dash cam (they are generically called dash cams, window mounted, dash mounted, grill mounted or otherwise) that sells for more than $3,000.  I couldn't do it.

[TeeDub]

quote:Originally posted by MH2010

What if you could review the video but not edit it?  Would you be okay with that?  The ones that are being tested now have that function.

Point taken.

I could see how that could be useful to both the officer and the public.

Also, Wilbur...   Is the $3500 with installation of the system?   I could see the system costing $1500, and then some company claiming that it is another 2k worth of work to actually "install" the system.  Maybe it would be possible for the city to contract our with a local stereo installer for a few cars at a time rather than bringing in a specialist.

[ARGUS]

+1 for reviewable systems and NOT be able to edit.

[Wilbur]

Don't know what to tell you about price.  You can quote all these prices from Best Buy and Circuit City all you want, won't change who bids on the specs once they are put out.  Needless to say, officers don't want pieces of crap where they will spend all day trying to get their systems to work because the department tried to buy some off the shelf, ordinary home camera system.  Just won't work.

And, sorry, air bags destroy a lot of things when they fire, not just their little holder.  That is why most windshields break when air bags deploy.  Anything sitting on a dashboard is going to go flying because the air bag deploys much larger then the hole it comes out of.

To spend $2.5M on a camera system because there is an vocal minority who refuse to believe one word any officer says or does is crazy.  That doesn't help any officer do there job better.  The amount of crime fighting that could be done with that amount of money is other areas would be a tremendous asset.  Do we realize who many new officers could be hired for that amount?

And how someone is supposed to do all this editing we are talking about from inside a car is beyond me.

[patric]

quote:Originally posted by Wilbur

To spend $2.5M on a camera system because there is an vocal minority who refuse to believe one word any officer says or does is crazy.  That doesn't help any officer do there job better.  The amount of crime fighting that could be done with that amount of money is other areas would be a tremendous asset.  Do we realize who many new officers could be hired for that amount?

And how someone is supposed to do all this editing we are talking about from inside a car is beyond me.

Think of it as an investment in quality control.

If being able to do things like replay incident video in the field isnt particularly useful to an individual officer, then certainly better documentation would help a department do its job better.  

If such documentation supports the officer's account, the department benefits.
If such documentation uncovers activity detrimental to maintaining the honesty and integrity of the department, the department benefits.  The blade cuts both ways when used correctly.  As far as tampering goes, the OHP's linear tape-based system is so easy to compromise a bright 8th grader could do it with the software that came with a video capture card.