How did OKC get so much more pride than Tulsa?

[Renaissance]

I see in the Daily Oklahoman that Oklahoma City citizens approved exorbitant upgrades to their arena by a margin of 62 - 38.

Does that shock anyone else?

It's amazing to me that such a dubious proposition was approved by such a resounding margin.  It makes me wonder how the political culture of OKC is so different from that of Tulsa.  Is this an issue of blind pride in the city?  Faith in elected officials?  Totally different political culture?

Someone tell me why our ostensibly sensible, and similarly priced, river vote failed miserably, while their crazy arena upgrade passed with flying colors?

[YoungTulsan]

You are equating "pride" directly to "support for a tax proposal"?

OKC was merely EXTENDING a CURRENT tax on this deal - their tax rate did not increase as a result.  Tulsans don't really have a problem doing that either.  We extend the third penny every few years.  It was the proposition of more on top of what we are already paying that failed in October.

Also, the NBA is a much more appealing "carrot" to dangle in front of the people than a bunch of sketchy "maybe it'll happen, maybe it won't" type development deals we were teased with during the river vote.

Any word on if the OKC project had $20 million pedestrian bridges to nothing in their plan?

[Cubs]

Yeah, if the NBA thing hadn't been a consideration, I think the Ford Center upgrades would definately have been shot down.

[sgrizzle]

What I like is that the deal is not contingent on the NBA coming, something I would've pushed for. It will end a little early if they don't, but they still will have spent more on our arena than we did and still have smaller seats, narrower aisles, etc.

[Hoss]

Another thing to consider is that while this is a one cent tax increase to the people down the pike, they won't see a tax rate increase.  How's that?  Because a tax of the same amount expires at the same time is this one kicks in.

[TheArtist]

None the less, there does seem to be a difference in the pshychology of OKC people and Tulsans. They seem to be more positive and upbeat, where as we seem to be more negative and defeatist. It wasnt always so.  

I think we just need to see some more real positive progress on some issues and developments, something to point to the naysayers and go "see, things are doing well". Plus once things get on a positive roll, you start attracting more positive people and the positive voices begin to drown out the whiners. It always seems to come back to that "critical mass" we often talk about, whether its a critical mass of positive; "downtown, river, or general development", jobs, arts district, entertainment and attractions, yp's, colleges, etc.

We are sooo close on many aspects, and if we keep pushing we will get there. But we have also all seen this before and watched as all the hopes come crashing down.

However one thing to note. If we equated Tulsa County with OKC, "we would still be smaller in size than OKC land and population wise".  We could consider ourselves as doing quite well. We would have gained practically everything OKC has and more, just not in the same way. The River District is easily equal to Bricktown, plus we have the Riverwalk, Bass Pro and all the stuff around that, Oklahoma Aquarium, fantastic new arena, positive signs of downtown redevelopment, riverparks improvements, steady growth and improvements along Brookside and Cherry Streets, several college campuses growing or being completely built, etc, etc. We aren't getting an NBA team, but over all I think we are doing extremely well. With hopefully more positive news to come.

[cannon_fodder]

I wouldn't say they had more pride, but they are certainly more excited about their city than we are.  How'd that happen?  They got the ball rolling long ago while Tulsa continued to decline.    Oklahoma city has the capital area, Norman, downtown and Bricktown as tourist friendly "show off" areas.  I've taken family there on tours.

People want to see the OKC Memorial, and gee the Gardens are right next door and then maybe some food at Bricktown, may as well catch a game.  Stay the night?  Why not.  OU Game, maybe something at the Ford Center... see what I'm saying?

Tulsa is getting on the ball, but unfortunately we have a long way to go.  I think our plan is more comprehensive as IMHO much of OKC remains unattractive to me, but as it stands their plan is much further developed.
- - -

It would be good for Tulsa to keep the FORD Center booked up with an NBA team.  Assuming Tulsa businesses don't jump on the sponsorship bandwagon (they didn't solicit before so I don't think so) and NO STATE MONEY is used to subsidize the team - it will free up acts to come to Tulsa.

I might get down there once a year for a game, but it really won't matter to me.  If it were here, I probably would have voted against it as it is intended to amount to a team subsidy (I did not look closely at the proposal obviously, but that seems to be the way of pro-sports) and I would fear more extortion in the future IF we got a team.  Then again, a pro team puts your city on the map...

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder


People want to see the OKC Memorial...

A friend and I were discussing, the other day, that OKC started to pick up after the OKC bombing. Perhaps a coincidence, but still odd nonetheless.

[Renaissance]

I don't know.  To me, it's difficult to fathom why OKC voters line up behind any proposed tax increase, while Tulsa voters are equally wary of any increase.

There's a perception issue somewhere.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by TURobY


A friend and I were discussing, the other day, that OKC started to pick up after the OKC bombing. Perhaps a coincidence, but still odd nonetheless.

Not at all Roby.  I grew up in Iowa... not that far away.  I had never really heard of Oklahoma City at the time, I suppose I knew it existed as a state capital but otherwise nothing.  Then it was all over the news.

They leveraged tons of federal money out of it, got a great tourist attraction, and simultaneous woke up and pulled together their city.  They set to work getting their crap in order and made hay while the sun was shining on them.  It was a horrible act, but they made the most of it without degrading the tragedy by making it an overt selling point.

Currently, when friends visit from Chicago, Minneapolis, or Iowa they often ask how far away the OKC memorial is.  We've made it a day trip on more than one occasion and everyone has left OKC impressed.  I assume plenty of other people in the area, passing through, or considering where to hold a conference consider the same things I do - a star attracting that people want to see and plenty of ancillary things to fit the bill.

I hope this doesn't sound cold hearted, but in my view they took a tragedy and used it to build their city.  I mean this as a good thing.

[dsjeffries]

I certainly think some Tulsans have more pride in Tulsa than some Oklahoma Citians of OKC, and vice versa.  There are always going to be pockets of support and pockets of discontent.

The difference lies in which group is more vocal, more prominently noticed by the larger area.

In this case, Tulsa's naysayers have overtaken the optimists while OKC's optimists have quashed or quieted their own naysayers.


Not all in OKC are extremely proud of their city, mind you... and keep in mind there was a "No NBA Tax" Campaign.

My friend just spent a weekend in OKC to see the Chihuly exhibit, and while she was there, she visited a well-educated friend who lives in OKC.  Here's a snippet of a conversation they had:

"We're going to see the Chihuly exhibit"

"Who??"

"...at the Oklahoma City Museum of Art"

"We have a museum of art?"

"Yeah, it's in the arts district"

"We have an arts district?"
...
"Then we're going to Nona's in Bricktown for dinner."

"What's Nona's?"
[B)]


It reminds me of every single instance that I mention going to Cherry Street or Brookside, met by a giant question mark on people's faces.

"...What's that?" [][xx(][B)]

[waterboy]

It comes down to faith in leadership and competent leadership. We have had a dearth of both. I don't know when Artist thinks we had a more positive upbeat attitude in this city. Maybe it was when I was away for college but I've never seen it. I still remember all the angry controversy over public money being spent for sculpture in front of the now decrepit Municipal building. Ironically it was called "Amity".

No, its a lack of faith in our leadership and its percieved lack of competency here. Lots of envy, distrust and politics mixed together with wealthy oil. Bake at 105degrees for three generations and serve with beer.[]

[Renaissance]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

It comes down to faith in leadership and competent leadership. We have had a dearth of both. I don't know when Artist thinks we had a more positive upbeat attitude in this city. Maybe it was when I was away for college but I've never seen it. I still remember all the angry controversy over public money being spent for sculpture in front of the now decrepit Municipal building. Ironically it was called "Amity".

No, its a lack of faith in our leadership and its percieved lack of competency here. Lots of envy, distrust and politics mixed together with wealthy oil. Bake at 105degrees for three generations and serve with beer.[]

Sounds about right to me.  Tulsa needs a combination of a transformative mayor, continued economic growth, and good decision making.  

When is the next mayoral election?

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by Floyd

Sounds about right to me.  Tulsa needs a combination of a transformative mayor, continued economic growth, and good decision making.  

When is the next mayoral election?

Can you explain what you mean by "transformative"?

[TheArtist]

How can it be that its always the politicians fault? Someone wants them in office or they wouldnt be there. But no matter who is in office, the "other group" will say they are at fault. If it hasnt changed in the past, I dont know who could be in office to which it STILL wouldnt be their fault. Nobody "trusts" anyone in this town. There is always some greed, nepotism, or old/big money connection. As if that doesnt exist elsewhere? Frankly, I think its about the same everywhere, even in OKC. Tulsans just fight about it more to the point of stagnation. We fret about whether a few million here or there was possibly, somehow, ill gotten gains, meanwhile we lose progress and hundreds of millions fighting about it. The same things and suspicions likely happen in other cities, but they get a move on, take the small losses for the big gain, and make things happen.  We apparently want perfection but have diverse opinions on what that perfection would look like. In Tulsa, rather than imperfect compromise, its fight to the death. I guarantee you my idea of transformative would be very different than many others on here. There is no way one person is going to be the right person for everyone.

Perhaps we are at a sort of crossroads. A crossroads in which if one side gets the upper hand, breaks the deadlock, the other side will become outnumbered because the type of people that will be in the city will start to more reflect whichever side comes out ahead. The demographics of who stays, moves in or leaves will reflect the who the winners, the "definers" of what kind of city we are becoming. If the YP, progressive types win, the city will start to develop in a way that will attract more of their type and the old naysayers will be outnumbered and begin to lose. If the naysayers win, Tulsa slides into being defined as a working class, poor, closed minded city. More young, progressive, people will leave, not move here, and the other side wins. One group often doesnt mind spending more taxes, the other doesnt want to spend anymore. One group believes present taxes should be spent on one item, the others something else. Whichever group gets the upper hand numbers wise in the coming years, will more and more define the city and its direction and push the others out.

It even seems like the Obama campaign is tapping into a lot of the same type of demograpics that we saw here for the river vote. Nationally and locally a certain type of young, positive minded individuals are wanting to be involved, wanting to connect, wanting to see progress on issues, priorities and projects that concern them. There has been such a loud and steady drumbeat of a certain type, and now it seems as if we are seeing a different group of thoughts and attitudes becoming more visible. Tulsa is also reflecting this trend, and another national trend, that of trying to create good urban environments, preserving and improving cities, not just suburban growth.