Rep. Kern's Statements

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by MDepr2007

I'm not the one who put the "do" in the situation. I mentioned the "want" , which is the want of the 2 examples not the doing.
Both have a desire for something perverted and I guess the only difference is the age and consent.....

Um, actually the biggest difference would be that having sex with children will get you 15 to life.

[grahambino]

quote:Originally posted by MDepr2007

I'm not the one who put the "do" in the situation. I mentioned the "want" , which is the want of the 2 examples not the doing.
Both have a desire for something perverted and I guess the only difference is the age and consent.....

Huh?
What the heck are you even trying to say?

[rwarn17588]

MDepr, the urge to have sex with children springs from criminal activity -- i.e., those who sexually abuse children, who then become child abusers themselves.

Homosexuality, on the other hand, is fused in a person's psyche practically from birth. You can control your sexual preference about as much as you can your skin color -- not at all.

This equating of child sex abuse to homosexuality (which occurs in nature, BTW) is either horribly ignorant, or you're simply trying to inflame the opinions of the ignorant.

Either way, it's dishonest.

Either way, stop it.

[MDepr2007]

Then if the issue is consenting adults that makes it alright. Why should school aged kids be injected with the gay issue if they are not old enough for consent?

[unknown]

quote:Originally posted by MDepr2007

Then if the issue is consenting adults that makes it alright. Why should school aged kids be injected with the gay issue if they are not old enough for consent?

I think the issue is intolerant a**holes like yourself, but you are missing the point greatly[]

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

quote:Originally posted by okiebybirth


If you can't tell the difference between homosexuality that is between two consenting adults, and pedophilia that is the abuse of a child, then I don't think there is anyone with enough time and energy on this board that can   educate you.

+1

Please note the trend on here of people speaking in favor of tolerance and equality are using logic and rational statements.  Most of those who profess the morale high ground are comparing homosexuals to people who intentionally harm children and offering divisiveness, belittlement, and judgment.  If you want it to be a religious argument - which side of that equation sounds more like what Jesus would do?

If this is outside the realm of religion, then the logical arguments presented from those that SHOULD be more emotionally invested are much more convincing than "the Bible said it is wrong."  

And if it is an emotional argument or merely an opinion, than the rights of people to be equal and free so-long-as those rights do not infringe on your rights trump your meager opinion.

Interestingly if anyone ever starts talking about Sodom to you, you can point out that according to aagadic tradition aka. the Talmud, the crime of Sodom is something altogether different.

Sodom wasn't the centre of wildness and corruption, but instead a place where legislation was evil due to a combination of malice and excessive respect for the letter of the law. So, when someone insists on their legal right to deprive another of enjoyment when he himself has nothing to lose is accused of midat Sodom. Which is why many of Gentiles call people like this, pains in the arse.

So the next time some bible thumbing idiot ruins your day and doesn't mind their business tell them they are a midat Sodom. (and run, I bet they hadn't got to bit on turn the other cheek)

[cannon_fodder]

quote:Originally posted by MDepr2007

Then if the issue is consenting adults that makes it alright. Why should school aged kids be injected with the gay issue if they are not old enough for consent?

1) Issue shifting / Irrelevant Conclusion  

Instead of engaging in the debate you continuously  abandon positions and raise new ones.  By doing so the nature of the argument continues to change until eventually the original issue is dropped.  Most often performed when a raised position is found to be indefensible  as stated.

2) Non Sequitur.

A) Homosexuality is as bad as pedophilia.
B) Pedophilia is illegal because minors can not consent
C) "Minors can not consent to the gay issue either."

That simply does not follow.

3) False Assumption

Your statement assumes they are "being injected with the gay issue" rather than it being one natural to their environment and with which they will have to deal.
- - -

That's all the logical faults I could find in your 2 sentences in 1 minute.

[Wingnut]

Azbadpuppy,
First off, thank you for your reply and point of view.
Please point out where I said that people weren't born gay?
I never said that. I don't know if that's the way it is or not. It makes no difference anyway.

As far as discounting actual court cases as not 'facts' because they're cited on a conservative website clearly shows that you haven't even taken the time check my sources to a point that you can actually discuss them logically. Since your reading this, I guess, I've listed some of them below for your convenience.
Colorado, 2007 A speakers panel from the "Conference on Word Affairs" was convened in the auditorium, all Boulder High school Students were forced to attend. The speaker encouraged the children to have sex and do drugs. Audio transcript (start at Part III).

Chicago, 2007 A classroom of eighth graders was shown the movie at school, Brokeback mountain. This is an R-rated movie which features two cowboys having a gay affair.

Massachusetts, 2007 A federal judge in Massachusetts has ordered the "gay" agenda taught to Christians who attend a public school in Massachusetts, finding that they need the teachings to be "engaged and productive citizens."

New Jersey, 2007: Marlton, NJ, third graders were shown a film "That's a family" that defined alternative families including lesbian and gay families. Terminology was defined in the film such as "you can actually use the word gay to describe two women who love each other or two men who love each other". No parental permission was requested or notification given before the film was shown to the eight year olds.

Maryland, 2006: Prince Georges County, a county school student was told by the supervisor that she could not read her Bible on school grounds during her free time, and she would be suspended if she continued.

Maryland, 2003: Montgomery County, a public school curriculum was unanimously approved by the Board of Education, that postulated and introduced the concept of whether homosexuality was a sin - referring kids to religions other then their own. Myth: It isn't "normal" to be homosexual or have homosexual feelings. Myth: Homosexuality is a sin. The "right" answer to this question is that some religions are "biblically misguided". Approved Teacher Resource: Issues and News: Myths and Facts, Family Pride Coalition.

Massachusetts, 2005: A public school second-grade class was read a fantasy book ("King and King") in school about two princes getting married. The prince in the fairy tale fell in love with the princess' brother, instead of the princess. When parents objected, the teacher said because same-sex marriage is legal in their state there is no way a mother or father can opt out a child from such experiences (the David Parker case). The school read the same story to second graders the following year, over parental objections and ignoring parent's requests to be notified.

Massachusetts, 2006: A group of gay activists have filed a friend of the court brief in the David Parker case, essentially stating that a parent has no right to object to ANYTHING the public schools want to teach their children, regardless of whether it conflicts with their faith or not.

California, 2006: California has passed a law adding "sexual identity" discrimination to its anti-discrimination laws. The teaching of most mainstream religions is that homosexual behavior is a sin. This religious belief is directly in conflict with the gay agenda. Similar laws in Australia and Canada have been used to justify enforcing "tolerance training" or acceptance of homosexual behavior even on the Catholic parochial schools.

Kentucky, 2004, The Boyd County school district is attempting to force all students to attend sexual orientation and gender identity "tolerance training", with no opt-out capability, after losing a law suit to the ACLU. James Esseks, litigation director for the ACLU's Lesbian and Gay Rights Project, told the Louisville Courier-Journal that "The schools have great latitude in what they want to teach, including what's in training programs, and the training is now part of the school curriculum. Parents don't get to say I don't want you to teach evolution or this, that or whatever else. If parents don't like it they can homeschool, they can go to a private school, they can go to a religious school.....

Massachusetts, 2006 Social worker visiting a third grade class (8 year olds) explains to class about transsexuals and transgenders, principal will not apologize.

Overseas

Germany, 2005. Germany, parents were told they could not home school their child, the child had to be in the public school system where the child could be taught that homosexuality was normal. In Germany, "Fourth-grade students are shown videos of sexual intercourse and how a baby comes forth from this act. The narrator of the video assures the students that this sexual act feels good and is fun. Homosexuality must be accepted as normal and the children are encouraged to examine themselves as to their own sexual orientation." Parents in Germany cannot home-school if they object, and must leave Germany or have their children seized by the state. The brand new curriculum under discussion for our 10th graders in Montgomery County also asserts that children should examine themselves as to their sexual orientation.

Australia, 2004 Catholic private schools are being pressured by the Australian Education Union, to teach that homosexuality is normal. Canadian Catholic schools are already forced to comply.

quote: In my world, I am NOT going to hell. In my world, everyone is truly made equal in the eyes of God. In my world, loving your neighbor as yourself is actually something to live by, and not just a catch phrase to use when it suits you.  

I never cited the Bible in any of my discussion. But since you brought it up, I have a question for you.  
In 1Cor 6:13 it says....The body is not for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body, and in 1Cor 6:18  it clearly states to "flee sexual immorality".
Certainly this applies to straight people, but does it apply to gay people as well? If not, why not?
If we're all equal before God, does this verse apply to you and other Christian gays?
If not then how can things be equal if you get to go around having all the sex you want and I don't?
Something else about your statement that confuses me...which God are you talking about? Jesus said "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30. Since God condemns homosexually in the Old Testament and you (others) claim that it's not discussed in the New Testament; since God and Jesus are one, does Jesus have a different view of homosexuality ? How can this be? That would mean that God is divided which is not the case. Please clearly explain yourself and please cite references and not just fluffy feel good concepts. And please don't explain things away by saying this or that isn't supposed to be in the Bible or it's interped wrong, or any other typical evasion to avoid the topic.


Another question.....what specific 'rights' have you been denied as a gay person?
Did you have to make a specific point of telling someone that your gay in order to be discriminated against in some way? If no one knows your gay, how can they discriminate against you?

quote:  Remember the part about separation of church and state? That's a good one to live by too since it was set up by our founding fathers, but somehow that has fallen by the wayside....

No I don't remember the 'separation of church and state" part of this discussion. It's not in the Constitution and not part of this discussion. That's a different thread.

quote:  ...the gay rights movement moves forward and will prevail....  

Prevail over what? Making sure everyone bows down to the gay lifestyle? Making sure all the kids know about how much fun it is being gay? Please explain.

quote: Now I just have one question for you: How is it that certain people believe that being gay is a 'lifestyle choice'?

I'm going to guess and say that someone forces you to have sex with another man?
Are you totally incapable of having sex with a woman?
If a straight guy wants to go out and have nothing but gay sex, he can do that, that's his choice.
Anyone can choose to do as they please. If I choose to rob a bank, thats my choice, but I suffer the consequences if I eventually get caught.

Again, thanks for your discussion.

[azbadpuppy]

quote:Originally posted by Wingnut

Azbadpuppy,
First off, thank you for your reply and point of view.
Please point out where I said that people weren't born gay?
I never said that. I don't know if that's the way it is or not. It makes no difference anyway.

As far as discounting actual court cases as not 'facts' because they're cited on a conservative website clearly shows that you haven't even taken the time check my sources to a point that you can actually discuss them logically. Since your reading this, I guess, I've listed some of them below for your convenience.
Colorado, 2007 A speakers panel from the "Conference on Word Affairs" was convened in the auditorium, all Boulder High school Students were forced to attend. The speaker encouraged the children to have sex and do drugs. Audio transcript (start at Part III).

Chicago, 2007 A classroom of eighth graders was shown the movie at school, Brokeback mountain. This is an R-rated movie which features two cowboys having a gay affair.

Massachusetts, 2007 A federal judge in Massachusetts has ordered the "gay" agenda taught to Christians who attend a public school in Massachusetts, finding that they need the teachings to be "engaged and productive citizens."

New Jersey, 2007: Marlton, NJ, third graders were shown a film "That's a family" that defined alternative families including lesbian and gay families. Terminology was defined in the film such as "you can actually use the word gay to describe two women who love each other or two men who love each other". No parental permission was requested or notification given before the film was shown to the eight year olds.

Maryland, 2006: Prince Georges County, a county school student was told by the supervisor that she could not read her Bible on school grounds during her free time, and she would be suspended if she continued.

Maryland, 2003: Montgomery County, a public school curriculum was unanimously approved by the Board of Education, that postulated and introduced the concept of whether homosexuality was a sin - referring kids to religions other then their own. Myth: It isn't "normal" to be homosexual or have homosexual feelings. Myth: Homosexuality is a sin. The "right" answer to this question is that some religions are "biblically misguided". Approved Teacher Resource: Issues and News: Myths and Facts, Family Pride Coalition.

Massachusetts, 2005: A public school second-grade class was read a fantasy book ("King and King") in school about two princes getting married. The prince in the fairy tale fell in love with the princess' brother, instead of the princess. When parents objected, the teacher said because same-sex marriage is legal in their state there is no way a mother or father can opt out a child from such experiences (the David Parker case). The school read the same story to second graders the following year, over parental objections and ignoring parent's requests to be notified.

Massachusetts, 2006: A group of gay activists have filed a friend of the court brief in the David Parker case, essentially stating that a parent has no right to object to ANYTHING the public schools want to teach their children, regardless of whether it conflicts with their faith or not.

California, 2006: California has passed a law adding "sexual identity" discrimination to its anti-discrimination laws. The teaching of most mainstream religions is that homosexual behavior is a sin. This religious belief is directly in conflict with the gay agenda. Similar laws in Australia and Canada have been used to justify enforcing "tolerance training" or acceptance of homosexual behavior even on the Catholic parochial schools.

Kentucky, 2004, The Boyd County school district is attempting to force all students to attend sexual orientation and gender identity "tolerance training", with no opt-out capability, after losing a law suit to the ACLU. James Esseks, litigation director for the ACLU's Lesbian and Gay Rights Project, told the Louisville Courier-Journal that "The schools have great latitude in what they want to teach, including what's in training programs, and the training is now part of the school curriculum. Parents don't get to say I don't want you to teach evolution or this, that or whatever else. If parents don't like it they can homeschool, they can go to a private school, they can go to a religious school.....

Massachusetts, 2006 Social worker visiting a third grade class (8 year olds) explains to class about transsexuals and transgenders, principal will not apologize.

Overseas

Germany, 2005. Germany, parents were told they could not home school their child, the child had to be in the public school system where the child could be taught that homosexuality was normal. In Germany, "Fourth-grade students are shown videos of sexual intercourse and how a baby comes forth from this act. The narrator of the video assures the students that this sexual act feels good and is fun. Homosexuality must be accepted as normal and the children are encouraged to examine themselves as to their own sexual orientation." Parents in Germany cannot home-school if they object, and must leave Germany or have their children seized by the state. The brand new curriculum under discussion for our 10th graders in Montgomery County also asserts that children should examine themselves as to their sexual orientation.

Australia, 2004 Catholic private schools are being pressured by the Australian Education Union, to teach that homosexuality is normal. Canadian Catholic schools are already forced to comply.

quote: In my world, I am NOT going to hell. In my world, everyone is truly made equal in the eyes of God. In my world, loving your neighbor as yourself is actually something to live by, and not just a catch phrase to use when it suits you.  

I never cited the Bible in any of my discussion. But since you brought it up, I have a question for you.  
In 1Cor 6:13 it says....The body is not for sexual immorality, but for the Lord, and the Lord for the body, and in 1Cor 6:18  it clearly states to "flee sexual immorality".
Certainly this applies to straight people, but does it apply to gay people as well? If not, why not?
If we're all equal before God, does this verse apply to you and other Christian gays?
If not then how can things be equal if you get to go around having all the sex you want and I don't?
Something else about your statement that confuses me...which God are you talking about? Jesus said "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30. Since God condemns homosexually in the Old Testament and you (others) claim that it's not discussed in the New Testament; since God and Jesus are one, does Jesus have a different view of homosexuality ? How can this be? That would mean that God is divided which is not the case. Please clearly explain yourself and please cite references and not just fluffy feel good concepts. And please don't explain things away by saying this or that isn't supposed to be in the Bible or it's interped wrong, or any other typical evasion to avoid the topic.


Another question.....what specific 'rights' have you been denied as a gay person?
Did you have to make a specific point of telling someone that your gay in order to be discriminated against in some way? If no one knows your gay, how can they discriminate against you?

quote:  Remember the part about separation of church and state? That's a good one to live by too since it was set up by our founding fathers, but somehow that has fallen by the wayside....

No I don't remember the 'separation of church and state" part of this discussion. It's not in the Constitution and not part of this discussion. That's a different thread.

quote:  ...the gay rights movement moves forward and will prevail....  

Prevail over what? Making sure everyone bows down to the gay lifestyle? Making sure all the kids know about how much fun it is being gay? Please explain.

quote: Now I just have one question for you: How is it that certain people believe that being gay is a 'lifestyle choice'?

I'm going to guess and say that someone forces you to have sex with another man?
Are you totally incapable of having sex with a woman?
If a straight guy wants to go out and have nothing but gay sex, he can do that, that's his choice.
Anyone can choose to do as they please. If I choose to rob a bank, thats my choice, but I suffer the consequences if I eventually get caught.

Again, thanks for your discussion.

Actually, I read all of the information you double-posted above in your original links. I chose to discount much of what they claim simply due to the obvious bias placed on the information, and the fact that they only discuss one side of the situation. But since you seem to think they are all very important concerns, let me ask you about the 'Brokeback Mountain' viewing. Is is the idea of showing an R rated movie in school to 8th graders that is so egregious, or is it that the movie has gay people in it? I'm confused about that one. My guess if it was a 'hetero-themed' R rated movie it would not be listed on that website. And as far as the 'gay agenda' goes, I have often wondered about that too. I mean, I am gay, and if I have an agenda I feel I should have been notified of this, but to this day I have yet to receive that memo.

I never quoted the Bible. I do not take the Bible literally. Honestly I don't know how you could. There are just too many contradictions and clearly outdated notions (hope you're not eating shellfish for dinner tonight). I have always found humor in the fact that many 'Christians' like to pick and choose parts of the Bible to take literally. I'm sorry but I cannot answer your questions on this matter since I don't understand exactly what 'sexual immorality' is as defined by that scripture, and I certainly do not believe that I do anything sexually immoral. Its kind of presumptuous of you to think that I would. As far as getting all the sex that I want, and you don't. Hmmm- sounds like a personal problem that you might want  to take up with your significant other. I'm not sure I get ALL I want, but my significant other and I don't really have any complaints in that department- not that its any of your business.  Again very presumptuous of you. I'm getting the feeling you might me stereotyping me as a promiscuous gay. Sorry to burst your bubble, but I'm really not that exciting.

I am not disputing what is written in the Bible. I'm certain that we would have differing opinions as to its interpretation, but since I am not Christian Identified I am not overly concerned with it. I also don't believe in the concept of the 'trinity', so no I do not believe that God and Jesus were one person. You have to be of certain religions to believe that. Most of the world, actually, does not believe in the trinity. Again, presumptuous.

Specific denied rights. Lets see, I can't legally marry, or enjoy the same tax benefits as you, I cannot visit my significant other in the hospital without his family's consent. I am not protected by law against certain crimes and discriminations as you are. I can be fired for being gay in Oklahoma, as in most states. Some states still have laws on the books outlawing sex acts between consenting members of the same sex. I cannot legally adopt children in many states. My possessions do not automatically pass on to my significant other in the event of my death since we aren't legally recognized.  Basically gay people are treated as second class citizens in this country, much like black people were and women before them. This is why I stated that the gay rights movement will eventually prevail because, regardless of my treatment as a second class citizen I still have faith that what is right will eventually prevail. I'm sure it will take a supreme court ruling as it always does, but it will happen.

As far as your absurd final statements, no one has forced me to have sex- male or female. That would be rape and is illegal. Are you asking if I am physically able to have sex with a woman? Of course. Do I? Um, no. I'm gay, remember? Are you able to have sex with a man? I don't know since I don't know your physical condition. Would you want to? My guess is no, although I could totally be wrong on that so forgive me if I am misinformed. I guess I am missing your point on this one, especially the robbing a bank analogy. I guess I should be used to that by now, having been compared in this thread to an assortment of criminal types ranging from terrorists to robbers, to pedophiles. Oh well. Like I said before, I'm really not all that exciting.

   

[rwarn17588]

<Wingnut wrote:

If a straight guy wants to go out and have nothing but gay sex, he can do that, that's his choice.

<end clip>

Um, no.

I'm a heterosexual. I'm certain I can't go out and have homosexual sex. That's because I'm not turned on by it.

Choice has nothing to do with it. I'm not going to do a sexual act that I feel indifferent about, at best. That's not bigotry on my part; it's because it's the way I'm hardwired in the brain. I can no more change that part of my psyche than I can change which way the sun comes up in the morning.

That said, as a married heterosexual, I have absolutely no objection to homosexuals getting married, having adoption privileges and other rights that married couples enjoy. In fact, I wholeheartedly support it, simply for reasons of human rights and common decency. People who are law-abiding citizens of the United States deserve the same rights as everyone else.

You'd think, after the civil rights movement of the 1960s, that most everyone would be on the same page with this. But I guess some folks will have to be on the wrong side of history for a few more years before they finally, if ever, come around. It's OK if they don't -- the rest of society will simply consign their pitiful few to the dustbin of anachronisms where the supremacists, misogynists and misanthropes reside.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote: Something else about your statement that confuses me...which God are you talking about? Jesus said "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30. Since God condemns homosexually in the Old Testament and you (others) claim that it's not discussed in the New Testament; since God and Jesus are one, does Jesus have a different view of homosexuality ? How can this be? That would mean that God is divided which is not the case. Please clearly explain yourself and please cite references and not just fluffy feel good concepts. And please don't explain things away by saying this or that isn't supposed to be in the Bible or it's interped wrong, or any other typical evasion to avoid the topic.

I don't think you should quote the bible until you have the bible in order. If you look at my post above the bible does not condemn homosexuality in the story of Sodom, in fact it condemns what you are doing right now. Does it not worry you that legalistic, boring kill joy has some how been translated into arse rapist in the English Christian bible? Just think how many other mistakes King James could have made. The whole thing looks like a pack of cards if you ask me.

So how about this, seeing as we have some serious doubts about the validity of the bible as an accurate description of the word of g-d, you begin to use rational arguments to explain your case.

[Wingnut]

quote:  the bible does not condemn homosexuality in the story of Sodom,

Then why was Sodom destroyed? Talk about picking and choosing!
Gen.19:4 Before they could lie down to sleep, 7  all the men – both young and old, from every part of the city of Sodom – surrounded the house. 19:5 They shouted to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!"
19:13 because we are about to destroy it. The outcry against this place is so great before the Lord that he  has sent us to destroy it."

Give up!

quote: let me ask you about the 'Brokeback Mountain' viewing. Is is the idea of showing an R rated movie in school to 8th graders that is so egregious, or is it that the movie has gay people in it?  

I don't think that a school needs to show 8th graders a movie with gay sex in it. It's not their place. I don't think an 8th grader needs to see an R rated movie, gay or otherwise. Mine don't. Most parents would agree.

quote: Are you asking if I am physically able to have sex with a woman? Of course. Do I? Um, no. I'm gay, remember?  

You make it sound like your not allowed to have sex with a woman, Or only allowed to have sex with a man.
I was in no way implying or comparing you to a bank robber. My point was/is that we have choices to make every day, from getting up in the morning to going to bed at night. What we do in between is our totally our choice. Who we have sex with or anything else, and we pay the consequences for our choices.

[TURobY]

quote:Originally posted by Wingnut

Gen.19:4 Before they could lie down to sleep, 7  all the men – both young and old, from every part of the city of Sodom – surrounded the house. 19:5 They shouted to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!"

Really? My version says: "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us, and let us know them."

quote:
I don't think that a school needs to show 8th graders a movie with gay sex in it. It's not their place. I don't think an 8th grader needs to see an R rated movie, gay or otherwise. Mine don't. Most parents would agree.

Okay, so we agree that 8th graders shouldn't see an R-rated movie, regardless of the sexual orientation. So, this isn't a result of the "gay agenda", but instead a lapse in judgement.

[si_uk_lon_ok]

quote:Originally posted by Wingnut

quote:  the bible does not condemn homosexuality in the story of Sodom,

Then why was Sodom destroyed? Talk about picking and choosing!
Gen.19:4 Before they could lie down to sleep, 7  all the men – both young and old, from every part of the city of Sodom – surrounded the house. 19:5 They shouted to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!"
19:13 because we are about to destroy it. The outcry against this place is so great before the Lord that he  has sent us to destroy it."

Give up!

Ok, let me explain, the bible does says that. But the bible is wrong. If you read the Talmud the story is quite different. That was the point of my post. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

If you read my posts I explain why Sodom was destroyed. And the reason is surprisingly ironic considering the game you are playing.

[Townsend]

quote:Originally posted by si_uk_lon_ok

quote:Originally posted by Wingnut

quote:  the bible does not condemn homosexuality in the story of Sodom,

Then why was Sodom destroyed? Talk about picking and choosing!
Gen.19:4 Before they could lie down to sleep, 7  all the men – both young and old, from every part of the city of Sodom – surrounded the house. 19:5 They shouted to Lot, "Where are the men who came to you tonight? Bring them out to us so we can have sex with them!"
19:13 because we are about to destroy it. The outcry against this place is so great before the Lord that he  has sent us to destroy it."

Give up!

Ok, let me explain, the bible does says that. But the bible is wrong. If you read the Talmud the story is quite different. That was the point of my post. I'm sorry if I wasn't clear enough.

If you read my posts I explain why Sodom was destroyed. And the reason is surprisingly ironic considering the game you are playing.

Wingnut is changing the words in an already poorly interpreted work...you guys are giving him too much attention.

I can make up lots of things to try to get some of my loon views across too.