Highway Lighting Costs

[dsjeffries]

Anyone who's been on Highway 75 at night knows the group of blindingly bright, insanely tall lights around the Highway 11 interchange (south of 36th St. N.).

The unnecessary brightness and height really creates a TON of glare and yet doesn't seem to light the roadway.  You can actually see the poles for miles if you're traveling southbound.

So here's the question:  Who bears the costs for lighting highways in cities?  Is it the State or the individual city?

If it's the city that will have to bear the costs of these atrocious lights, couldn't we demand better lighting plans when ODOT decides we need lights?

Here are some photos I took tonight...




I spent the weekend in Orlando a few weeks ago and let me tell you, it was amazing to drive down highways with full-cutoff light fixtures.  The road was brighter, glare was minimal or non-existent, and the sky above was black.  Not only were they full-cutoff, but they weren't stuck 100+ feet up in the air!  They were maybe 20-25 feet tall and kind of leaned over the the closest lanes so that the light was more centered on the roadway than on the right of way.

Here's a shot I took in the daytime of one of the poles.  Yes, I took pictures of the poles whilst zipping down the highway... Don't worry, I wasn't driving:


As the plane descended into Tulsa, I saw the golden glow of the upwardly-projecting, ineffective city and highway lights, and knew I was home [].

[mrhaskellok]

Out west like Phoenix, they have an ordnances against light pollution...wish everyone had them.  It is simply a waste of energy, ruins the night sky, and adds strain to the already aging infrastructure.   I had a discussion one day with a friend of mine...if towns looked at their lighting bills each month, they usually will find enough money to add a significant number of officers on the street to patrol the now dark and apparently more dangerous streets.  


Sid

[PonderInc]

I noticed the same problem several years ago near the HWY 75/BA exchange. (Obnoxiously huge, tall, glaring lights.) At the time, I was told that the city didn't have any jurisdiction over these highway lights.  I think they said it was a state thing. (I can't remember who told me that, though.)

[dsjeffries]

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

I noticed the same problem several years ago near the HWY 75/BA exchange. (Obnoxiously huge, tall, glaring lights.) At the time, I was told that the city didn't have any jurisdiction over these highway lights.  I think they said it was a state thing. (I can't remember who told me that, though.)

So does the state pay for the cost to light them or do they just have the jurisdiction?

[Wrinkle]

Henry's cousins brother-in-law got a good deal on some pole fixtures from an online surplus military site, sold them to DOT for pennies on the dollar. On time, under budget.

Electricity comes from someone elses' budget.

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by DScott28604

quote:Originally posted by PonderInc

I noticed the same problem several years ago near the HWY 75/BA exchange. (Obnoxiously huge, tall, glaring lights.) At the time, I was told that the city didn't have any jurisdiction over these highway lights.  I think they said it was a state thing. (I can't remember who told me that, though.)

So does the state pay for the cost to light them or do they just have the jurisdiction?

Typically paid by the local municipal jurisdiction unless at a major highway interchange.

[patric]

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/local/repair-costs-approach-million-since-copper-thieves-began-killing-lights/article_47bddfd2-8bd0-540b-9fab-8cd5e4e9ea4b.html


...Why does the city of Tulsa maintain lights on highways built by the state and federal government? Because about 30 or 40 years ago, that's what local leaders agreed to do.

"We are the only large city in the state that maintains their highway lights," Ball said. "Back in the '60s and '70s, the city of Tulsa made the decision that they would maintain them. The other cities, like Oklahoma City, their power providers maintain their highway lights."

The lights on city streets are maintained by AEP-PSO, and over the years the city has considered looking into having the utility do the same for the highway lights, Ball said, but that would come with a cost, too.


The irony of the highway lights outages is that while the city throws tens of millions of tax dollars at it, accidents and fatalities went DOWN when the lights went out. 
For some reason, people drive more carefully when its darker.

[patric]

Tulsa Whirled: "Unlit highways makes lanes hard to determine and other traffic less visible. Some particularly shaded areas are terrifying after sundown."

The un-named Tulsa World writer just described 90% of the highways in America, where speed limits are much faster and people manage to survive with only their headlights and painted lines to protect them from disaster.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/editorials/tulsa-world-editorial-city-makes-progress-on-returning-lights-to/article_8c1eafe2-3c57-5c2a-a757-12e5861b3bba.html

[heironymouspasparagus]

Tulsa Whirled: "Unlit highways makes lanes hard to determine and other traffic less visible. Some particularly shaded areas are terrifying after sundown."

The un-named Tulsa World writer just described 90% of the highways in America, where speed limits are much faster and people manage to survive with only their headlights and painted lines to protect them from disaster.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/opinion/editorials/tulsa-world-editorial-city-makes-progress-on-returning-lights-to/article_8c1eafe2-3c57-5c2a-a757-12e5861b3bba.html

Ha!    Blaming unlit for their massive fail at keeping lanes properly marked.  BS on them!!

[patric]

Ha!    Blaming unlit for their massive fail at keeping lanes properly marked.  BS on them!!

Keeping the reflective lines painted on expressways should cost a lot less that $10 million, but we would prefer that money go to corporate welfare than education.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Just some observations while I was in Tulsa a couple of weeks ago. The lack of highway lighting while an issue, is not the biggest problem. Driving the BA Expressway at night with the crappy lane marking, lack of any lighting for exits/on ramps/ and lighting of the signs signs marking them, and the fact that you have people driving at 40 MPH in all three lanes along with people driving the posted speed limit, and people doing well in excess of 70 MPH is the primary problem. Mix in those issues and the poorly marked construction,  the march of orange barrels, and the general lack of repair and improvement just makes driving the freeways there crap.

I have driven the 880 through the east bay area of SF at night and in the rain, and at least people know how to drive. I'll take driving in SF, LA, San Diego, Phoenix over driving in Tulsa. I feel more comfortable driving I-10 or the Foothill Freeway (I-210) through LA than driving in Tulsa, and neither one of those LA freeways are lit at night.

[patric]

Just some observations while I was in Tulsa a couple of weeks ago. The lack of highway lighting while an issue, is not the biggest problem. Driving the BA Expressway at night with the crappy lane marking, lack of any lighting for exits/on ramps/ and lighting of the signs signs marking them, and the fact that you have people driving at 40 MPH in all three lanes along with people driving the posted speed limit, and people doing well in excess of 70 MPH is the primary problem. Mix in those issues and the poorly marked construction,  the march of orange barrels, and the general lack of repair and improvement just makes driving the freeways there crap.

I have driven the 880 through the east bay area of SF at night and in the rain, and at least people know how to drive. I'll take driving in SF, LA, San Diego, Phoenix over driving in Tulsa. I feel more comfortable driving I-10 or the Foothill Freeway (I-210) through LA than driving in Tulsa, and neither one of those LA freeways are lit at night.

While I advocate lighting ramps, interchanges and curves, the assumption that we MUST spend millions to light everything in-between is a false crisis being sold to the taxpayers with fear.  Even a train crash downtown was partially blamed on "dim expressway lighting" because the train conductor couldnt see (he was going backward).

[heironymouspasparagus]

Just some observations while I was in Tulsa a couple of weeks ago. The lack of highway lighting while an issue, is not the biggest problem. Driving the BA Expressway at night with the crappy lane marking, lack of any lighting for exits/on ramps/ and lighting of the signs signs marking them, and the fact that you have people driving at 40 MPH in all three lanes along with people driving the posted speed limit, and people doing well in excess of 70 MPH is the primary problem. Mix in those issues and the poorly marked construction,  the march of orange barrels, and the general lack of repair and improvement just makes driving the freeways there crap.

I have driven the 880 through the east bay area of SF at night and in the rain, and at least people know how to drive. I'll take driving in SF, LA, San Diego, Phoenix over driving in Tulsa. I feel more comfortable driving I-10 or the Foothill Freeway (I-210) through LA than driving in Tulsa, and neither one of those LA freeways are lit at night.

Any of those is better...  Also, anywhere in New England - they really do know how to drive there!  And people are almost irritatingly polite and nice... and not like Minnesota nice...!

[Townsend]

and not like Minnesota nice...!

[patric]

"We're not creating neat, interesting places (in neighborhoods) because we've allocated our money to making commutes easier," Ewing said.

But there was some agreement with Ewing's overall thrust, which was that cities become popular because they've invested in creating interesting places to live. Ewing noted cities such as Austin and Denver have much worse traffic than Tulsa, but it doesn't seem to keep people from moving there.

http://www.tulsaworld.com/homepagelatest/councilor-says-city-worries-too-much-about-streets-not-enough/article_338f2a37-385a-5758-b4bd-1a03f3e5c26e.html

So lets throw another $10 Million into fixing the expressway lights we didnt actually need in the first place.