EMSA Opt-Out "Open Season"

[Kenosha]

FB,

Any chance you are considering moving from this gawd awful city?

Respectfully,

Kenosha

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by Kenosha

FB,

Any chance you are considering moving from this gawd awful city?

Respectfully,

Kenosha

EMSA is the poster-boy of what I term: The Tulsa Premium.

The Tulsa Premium is an inefficient, high-cost delivery system of government services.  The Tulsa Premium is associated with our multitude of mini-empires, such as EMSA, TMUA, TAIT, TCC, TTC, TDC, THA, TPS, etc., etc., etc., and they trade favors with each other to maintain and increase their funding.

Most major city governments are smart enough to combine the functions of ambulance, fire and first responder under one organization, namely the Fire Dept.

The city should use EMT-trained fire personnel utilizing 1-ton pickup trucks, with a gasoline engine, with side bins for supplies like bandages, oxygen, medicine, tools, Jaws-of-Life etc.

Then, after responding to a medical emergency and giving first aid, IF NECESSARY, summon the ambulance for transport.

I suspect that 90% of the time there is NO transport after 9-1-1 is called.  Any takers on that bet?

Tulsa's service model of having a $400-$600K fire truck followed by an ambulance respond to all medical emergencies is ruinously expensive.

Notice that $3.64 fee that we never had before?

That's just the beginning.

So, a more logical and economical model would have the EMT personnel sitting around the fire station drinking coffee and playing dominoes until they get an emergency call.

[waterboy]

I think you overestimate the FD's capabilities and would put our community at risk. Saving lives and putting out fires are two different skill sets. Yes, you can make a fireman do ER work and yes, you can make a nurse put out fires but neither one will be very effective at it.

You may have a point with the burdensome administration of these functions (especially the overpaid top dogs) but keep your argument there. Attacking the workers at the lower levels is just wrong. Office workers, lawyers, doctors all sit around drinking coffee too.

Quick question. Did you see the rescue work the FD did at 101st and Garnett last week?

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

I think you overestimate the FD's capabilities and would put our community at risk. Saving lives and putting out fires are two different skill sets. Yes, you can make a fireman do ER work and yes, you can make a nurse put out fires but neither one will be very effective at it.

You may have a point with the burdensome administration of these functions (especially the overpaid top dogs) but keep your argument there. Attacking the workers at the lower levels is just wrong. Office workers, lawyers, doctors all sit around drinking coffee too.

Quick question. Did you see the rescue work the FD did at 101st and Garnett last week?

I have no problem with any of the personnel at either organization, EMSA or TFD.

It's the POLICY administration and organization that has been inefficient and bloated.

For decades.

Many fire dept. personnel around the U.S., including those with Tulsa FD, are cross-trained as EMT personnel.

There are pay incentives to achieve the various EMT certification levels, and I believe that Tulsa FD incents their personnel as well.

Once somepme graduates from a fire academy, those who have no aversion to dealing with various bodily fluids may willingly cross-train as EMT's.

Many WANT to cross-train. They are oriented to helping people, and want to save lives.

I applaud that skill-set.

I do NOT applaud EMSA administration, or our chronically inefficient and wasteful city goobermint.

[rwarn17588]

Bear makes a half-hearted pullback in an effort to salvage what's left of his dignity after Mike G. shredded him into itty-bitty pieces.

But, sorry, Bear, you still earn a:

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

Bear makes a half-hearted pullback in an effort to salvage what's left of his dignity after Mike G. shredded him into itty-bitty pieces.

But, sorry, Bear, you still earn a:

Don't entirely follow your logic there, but you should know by now I obviously have absolutely NO DIGNITY.  

None.

If I retained even a shred of Dignity, I would have departed the Banana Republic of Tulsa long, long ago.  

Alas, cruel fate and circumstances have kept me here in the Banana Republic of Tulsa.

Nonetheless, I still draw occasional satisfaction from educating a small number of open-minded Forum participants who aspire to an understanding of the local power structure's iron grip on their lives, minds, livelihoods, and fortunes.

[:O]

[rwarn17588]

<FB wrote:

Nonetheless, I still draw occasional satisfaction from educating lying to a small number of uninformed Forum participants who aspire to an understanding of the local power structure's strong grip on their lives, minds and livelihoods.

<end clip>

There, fixed that for you.

Here's what happens when F.B. writes a post using dubious information:

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by rwarn17588

<FB wrote:

Nonetheless, I still draw occasional satisfaction from educating lying to a small number of uninformed Forum participants who aspire to an understanding of the local power structure's strong grip on their lives, minds and livelihoods.

<end clip>

There, fixed that for you.

Here's what happens when F.B. writes a post using dubious information:

I feel soooooo unloved.

By the way, feel free to show me where I was lying?

Don't you think that calling a difference in judgment LYING may be just a bit extreme?

[shadows]

Once upon a time a Tulsa police and fire commissioner brought up the question about combining the two departments and place all on 8 hour shifts.  The riot of 21 was very near duplicated before the suggestion was withdrawn.  

In Tulsa we don't combine departments we create another bureaucracy to make a three year study to see if other cities have tried it.  

[waterboy]

quote:Originally posted by shadows

Once upon a time a Tulsa police and fire commissioner brought up the question about combining the two departments and place all on 8 hour shifts.  The riot of 21 was very near duplicated before the suggestion was withdrawn.  

In Tulsa we don't combine departments we create another bureaucracy to make a three year study to see if other cities have tried it.  

There's a lot of truth to that. City Parks (Tulsa,BA,Bixby,Jenks,Owasso,Sand Springs), County Parks, River Parks etc. Lots of duplication and squeels of agony over any attempt to combine. Thats the nature of government anyway.

When I worked at a large oil company one of the oldtimers put it this way: Some oil companies are leaders and some are followers. The leaders take risks but are paid back handsomely. The followers set up watch groups to see what works and take little risk but are generally at greater risk of failure or absorption by the leaders. That company was the now departed Cities Service Oil. Tulsa is for the most part in the follower category.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

quote:Originally posted by shadows

Once upon a time a Tulsa police and fire commissioner brought up the question about combining the two departments and place all on 8 hour shifts.  The riot of 21 was very near duplicated before the suggestion was withdrawn.  

In Tulsa we don't combine departments we create another bureaucracy to make a three year study to see if other cities have tried it.  

There's a lot of truth to that. City Parks (Tulsa,BA,Bixby,Jenks,Owasso,Sand Springs), County Parks, River Parks etc. Lots of duplication and squeels of agony over any attempt to combine. Thats the nature of government anyway.

When I worked at a large oil company one of the oldtimers put it this way: Some oil companies are leaders and some are followers. The leaders take risks but are paid back handsomely. The followers set up watch groups to see what works and take little risk but are generally at greater risk of failure or absorption by the leaders. That company was the now departed Cities Service Oil. Tulsa is for the most part in the follower category.

In many major cities, such as Houston, the Fire Dept. paramedics are the First Responders.  They are part of the Fire Department organizationally.  

As the 4th largest city in the U.S., I would call Houston a major city.

Significantly, these First Responders drive around in eponymous Paramedic trucks, made famous world-wide from the TV series "Emergency".

Remember?

These are relatively low cost vehicles, much less costly than the $400K -$600K fire trucks that the City of Tulsa buys at a very high tempo because they are wearing them out responding to NON-Fire related 9-1-1 calls.

It would be interesting to document the %-age of calls that the Fire Trucks respond to that are NOT fire-related.  I suspect that it is a significant majority.

Paramedic trucks on the other hand, are outfitted as a first responder for all types of emergencies, both medical and non-medical.  The paramedics are also trained EMT personnel.

And, their vehicles are much more agile and economical than either ambulances which are inherently top heavy and difficult to control when cornering at high speed, or 30-ton fire trucks which are a menace to other drivers on the road due the immense kinetic energy they can impart in a collision with a 3,500 lb sedan.

I'm just patiently waiting for the eventuality of a Tulsa driver, parked compliantly to allow a Fire Truck to pass, getting rear-ended by a 30-ton fire truck and gets killed or seriously injured.

The sedan and driver will lose that unequal contest.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

I'm just patiently waiting for the eventuality of a Tulsa driver, parked compliantly to allow a Fire Truck to pass, getting rear-ended by a 30-ton fire truck and gets killed or seriously injured.

You are patiently waiting for a car/truck crash?

You are a sick Bear.

[waterboy]

FB, those are good arguments. I'll have to look up eponymous, but I would like to know what is a non-medical emergency that a first responder ambulance would respond to?

Folding the EMSA into TFD doesn't seem too outrageous but I know this has been argued to death and I just don't remember the points.

As far as the type of vehicles used for medical emergency response, that is a tactical decision that seems less relevant in a forum discussion. I find it hilarious what passes for water rescue in this area but those making the tactical decision to buy may be more informed about what is available and affordable than I am. Maybe.

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by RecycleMichael

quote:Originally posted by Friendly Bear

I'm just patiently waiting for the eventuality of a Tulsa driver, parked compliantly to allow a Fire Truck to pass, getting rear-ended by a 30-ton fire truck and gets killed or seriously injured.

You are patiently waiting for a car/truck crash?

You are a sick Bear.

Sorry my response bothered you.  Keep a Nitro pill handy if you continue reading this.

Patiently waiting.  

NOT, Eagerly awaiting.

Patiently waiting because I know our city leaders are impotent to change the EMSA vs. Fire Dept. First Responder status quo of the past 30 years.

A wreck is bound to happen, based on the high tempo's of sorties by 30-ton Fire Trucks responding to someone fainting in a nursing home.  

And, when it does, it will probably be bad.

Look for it on one of Tulsa's narrow former farm-to-market roads, like 81st, 91st, or 101st.

Even if you've driven half-way off the road into the bar ditch, the firetruck's wake shakes your car when it blows past.

Va-roo00000m!

[Friendly Bear]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

FB, those are good arguments. I'll have to look up eponymous, but I would like to know what is a non-medical emergency that a first responder ambulance would respond to?

Folding the EMSA into TFD doesn't seem too outrageous but I know this has been argued to death and I just don't remember the points.

As far as the type of vehicles used for medical emergency response, that is a tactical decision that seems less relevant in a forum discussion. I find it hilarious what passes for water rescue in this area but those making the tactical decision to buy may be more informed about what is available and affordable than I am. Maybe.

When a Fire Truck responds to a medical emergency as the First Responder, they come equiped to deal with situations that are beyond the capabilities of the EMSA ambulance crews.

For instance, the Fire Truck has axes and pry-bars to get into houses to care for someone who's unconscious and cannot answer the door.

They have pry-bars and the jaws-of-life to open up crushed cars like a sardine can lid to give emergency medical car to car wreck victims.  Again, beyond the capability of EMSA personnel.

TFD also have chains saws to rescue someone injured from fallen debris, trees, etc.

All of that type equipment is carried on the Paramedic one-ton trucks used by other major cities.