Homelessness Downtown

[JoeMommaBlake]

I'm posting this here because I truly value the discussion that takes place on this site and think that solutions might be achieved through thoughtful discourse.

As many of you know, I am opening a restaurant in Tulsa's downtown. I've long been an advocate of our city, especially our downtown area and continue to have great hope for what Tulsa can become.

Through the process of preparing for our new location, I've been confronted by a very emotional topic. The homeless population in Tulsa is largely concentrated in our downtown area. The primary agencies and mission groups that care for the homeless are all situated downtown, many of them in the west end of the Brady District.

The desire to see downtown prosper has lead some to engage in efforts to move the homeless from downtown in to various housing units around the city. The hope, as I understand it, is to lessen the number of homeless walking the streets of Tulsa by transporting them in to different neighborhoods.

The John 3:16 Mission has applied for permits to add new beds to their mission. These beds would allow for around 60 more people to sleep in the mission at night. As of now, they have a lottery where numbers are drawn and those without are forced to sleep outside. The mission also offers  very little service to women as they can't have mixed housing. The new beds would create a place for women and children that they do not currently offer.

The same advocates of moving the homeless out of downtown, are opposed to this expansion of the mission and are fighting the permit. They want to see a more appealing and comfortable downtown and are aware that the homeless do not contribute to appeal and comfort.

There is a great deal to discuss here, and I'll hold off on my whole opinion until a bit later just to save space and get the flow going.

My question to you all is this: The problem of homelessness is not lost on Tulsa, and its presence may in some ways affect the development of downtown. How do we best deal with issue?

I know that this topic is somewhat controversial and is emotional. I hope that in the midst of this, our conversation can lead to progress.

[TeeDub]

Shipping them off to other places worked for San Francisco.

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2006/01/28/BAGHUGV3AG1.DTL

[godboko71]

Quick points more to come later.

1. Blocking this permit is silly
2. Better communication with said homeless people about all the services out there to help them back on there feet
3. Charles Page Foundation and there homes (Yes they have more the group homes and battered womens homes)
4. More support from businesses and residents in the area for the services (Not money per say but time to educate people is needed)
5. Arresting Solicitors (More on this later)
6. Better educating the police and more guys on the streets (yes I know about the extra bike cops need more though)

Again just some fast points before I leave for a bit.

[Hometown]

Downtown and North Tulsa have been carrying the burden for the whole city.  There is such a concentration of homeless services in these areas now that they have become a real barrier to improving downtown and North Tulsa.

I would like to see the city strive for justice and share the burden with the rest of the city.  There is a great deal of poverty concentrated in areas of south Tulsa and I would especially like to see south Tulsa carry its share of the load.

[cannon_fodder]

I wholeheartedly agree with the need to help people get back on their feat.  However, John 3:16 does not discriminate against people who are habitual or dead-beat homeless.  They help everyone - which is admirable in it's own right, but also enables a person to remain a bum in downtown Tulsa in perpetuity.

The fact of the matter is, and I raise this each time this discussion comes up, there is a certain percentage of homeless who find it easier to live on the street.  Either because they do not want to give up drugs, they like the lifestyle, or are scared to do otherwise.  IMHO, giving those people more amenities only helps to encourage the lifestyle as well as entice them to stay in downtown Tulsa.

Arresting solicitors doesn't really help (though I support it, oddly).  What difference does it make to a homeless man if he spends the night in jail with meal or in a shelter with a meal?  The deterrent effect is not there.

I guess my position could be summarized as open arms and abundant help for people actually trying to get on their feet.  Help with drug addiction, a place to stay, mental services - whatever we can provide to make them a productive member.  But I have no sympathy nor wish to aid those who have either burned the social service bridges or have no desire to really utilize them.

/gets hit up for "gas money" at least twice a week at a QT.  NO is the policy and the mandate.  I love helping people, I hate being used.

[edit] Forgot to mention, some of the habitual homeless are migratory.  They know of the "best places" to be and will travel there.  We don't want to be that place.[/edit]

[JoeMommaBlake]

Robert,

Thanks for the reply. I think you're hitting some huge things here.

My thoughts and issues...

1. NIMBY. Who in this city is going to be cool with homeless housing moving in to their neighborhood?
2. All of the homeless agencies are in downtown and will stay. So even if there are beds somewhere else, you'll still have people coming downtown to eat breakfast at the church, lunch at the salvation army and dinner at John 3:16. Not to mention, Day Center provides all of the job related services.
3. It's inhumane to treat human beings like rodents. Just because it may not make people comfortable does not mean that it is a crime to not have a house.
4. Appropriate education is required, both for the downtown community and for law enforcement. For example, did you know that roughly 65% of Tulsa's homeless population is situationally homeless? This means that they had some sort of event happen that has temporarily put them on the street. They don't need to be shipped out of town to a big apartment or lumped in with chronic homeless people. They need assistance getting back on their feet. They aren't criminals, are not panhandling, and should not be lumped in with those who are.
5. I've heard (from Jim Norton's mouth) that the Zarrow Foundation is somehow backing this program to house the homeless, which at its core, sounds like a great humanitarian activity. The number he threw out was 4 million. 4 Million dollars to make people feel more comfortable coming downtown...Think of what 4 million would do as far as putting more cops on bikes in downtown Tulsa. It would address the discomfort issue while also addressing a crime issue.
6. Each day that John 3:16 has to wait is another day that people are sleeping in alleys and under bridges. If the mission could accommodate the numbers, these same people would be eating a hot meal, attending a nightly church service, and sleeping in a warm bed...instead of wandering around. The agencies have been in downtown long before anybody decided to spruce the place up. If you want to talk about a nuisance downtown, let's start talking about that big jail the city decided to put down there....right where the baseball stadium should be.
6. There are a few obnoxious panhandlers downtown. Assuming that all of the homeless are like these guys is wrong. They should not be given money, but instead should be sent to the mission or the salvation army, and if they refuse to leave, should be dealt with by the police. . . which leads to my proposed solution:
Give the mission their beds, host some forums downtown for downtown business owners to be educated on how we can best serve our homeless neighbors, and add more cops on bikes.

As more people come downtown, the ratio of homeless to non-homeless will shift heavily, thus reducing the emotional impact of having to look upon homelessness. Cops within sight and shouting distance also go a very long way towards alleviating discomfort. Downtown Tulsa, like all other downtowns, will have its homeless. How we as a city choose to care for them is important and should be decided early in our redevelopment process.

[sgrizzle]

The downtown YMCA is moving and I believe, building new digs.

A group has been working to build "housing for the homeless" which is basically zero-rent apartments at spots spread around town. No matter what the place is, it's best to be spread out where they can be closer to possible employment.

[Gaspar]

No one is addressing the more important issue!  

There is a reason that these people are homeless that goes beyond lack of education or tough luck.

I've had the "privilege" to care for many of our homeless when I was an EMT in college.  Most of these people have some form of mental illness that is untreated.  Some have sought treatment, but proven to be non-compliant patients. Others have substance addictions so severe that what ever ability they had to be rational members of society has been long lost.

A very very small percentage of the homeless are simply out of work or thrown into their situation by anything other than their own actions. These people are not homeless for long.

You can provide housing, blankets, meals, classes, and programs out the whazoo but you not addressing the problem.  From what I know of most of these people, outside of some form of institutionalization, they will always return to the habits, and decision making processes that created their current status.

The small percentage that can pull themselves out are already doing so with the programs currently available to them.  I volunteered regularly at the Day Center back in the 80s and 90s.  I never witnessed any lack of aid, assistance, transportation or educational and job opportunities for those who actively sought it.   It's just that most had no interest in doing the work necessary to elevate their status.  Most were content to take what was given to them, sell what they could, and drink, smoke, and shoot as much as they could afford or steal from others.

They would move from place to place according to what services they could get.  

I know it's sad to say, but it is an issue of "the more you give, the more they will take."  Unless you find a way to address the actual problem, the underlying illness will continue unabated.

Please don't call me names for this opinion.  It is simply what I have observed.

[BierGarten]

The John 3:16 Mission simply wants to help homeless that ARE ALREADY DOWNTOWN.


The Mission did get its permit/variance from the city but the city's decision is being litigated/appealed de novo (doesn't matter what happened at the city level, the judge him/herself gets to decide all over again).

I think the Tulsa World, I mean the City of Tulsa, is coming with too little too late here with their efforts to come up with ideas for spreading the homeless all accross Tulsa. Downtown has become, through decades of City policy, the hub of homeless services.  Telling the John 3:16 Mission (which by the way takes ZERO of your tax dollars) that it can't more efficiently provide its services would have been crazy.  Only a handful of downtown landowners and homeowners (most of whom bought their land after the Mission was there along with most all the other homeless services) are fighting the variance.

[sgrizzle]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

No one is addressing the more important issue!  

There is a reason that these people are homeless that goes beyond lack of education or tough luck.

I've had the "privilege" to care for many of our homeless when I was an EMT in college.  Most of these people have some form of mental illness that is untreated.  Some have sought treatment, but proven to be non-compliant patients. Others have substance addictions so severe that what ever ability they had to be rational members of society has been long lost.

A very very small percentage of the homeless are simply out of work or thrown into their situation by anything other than their own actions. These people are not homeless for long.

You can provide housing, blankets, meals, classes, and programs out the whazoo but you not addressing the problem.  From what I know of most of these people, outside of some form of institutionalization, they will always return to the habits, and decision making processes that created their current status.

The small percentage that can pull themselves out are already doing so with the programs currently available to them.  I volunteered regularly at the Day Center back in the 80s and 90s.  I never witnessed any lack of aid, assistance, transportation or educational and job opportunities for those who actively sought it.   It's just that most had no interest in doing the work necessary to elevate their status.  Most were content to take what was given to them, sell what they could, and drink, smoke, and shoot as much as they could afford or steal from others.

They would move from place to place according to what services they could get.  

I know it's sad to say, but it is an issue of "the more you give, the more they will take."  Unless you find a way to address the actual problem, the underlying illness will continue unabated.

Please don't call me names for this opinion.  It is simply what I have observed.

No you are very correct. ODMHSAS is woefully underfunded and it's not going to get better. We  don't have a tenth of the treatment services we need for Mental Health and Substance abuse.

[Wilbur]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

No one is addressing the more important issue!  

There is a reason that these people are homeless that goes beyond lack of education or tough luck.

I've had the "privilege" to care for many of our homeless when I was an EMT in college.  Most of these people have some form of mental illness that is untreated.  Some have sought treatment, but proven to be non-compliant patients. Others have substance addictions so severe that what ever ability they had to be rational members of society has been long lost.

A very very small percentage of the homeless are simply out of work or thrown into their situation by anything other than their own actions. These people are not homeless for long.

You can provide housing, blankets, meals, classes, and programs out the whazoo but you not addressing the problem.  From what I know of most of these people, outside of some form of institutionalization, they will always return to the habits, and decision making processes that created their current status.

The small percentage that can pull themselves out are already doing so with the programs currently available to them.  I volunteered regularly at the Day Center back in the 80s and 90s.  I never witnessed any lack of aid, assistance, transportation or educational and job opportunities for those who actively sought it.   It's just that most had no interest in doing the work necessary to elevate their status.  Most were content to take what was given to them, sell what they could, and drink, smoke, and shoot as much as they could afford or steal from others.

They would move from place to place according to what services they could get.  

I know it's sad to say, but it is an issue of "the more you give, the more they will take."  Unless you find a way to address the actual problem, the underlying illness will continue unabated.

Please don't call me names for this opinion.  It is simply what I have observed.

Congratulations to Gasper for knowing the root of the problem.  Most of these folks have mental health issues, plus drug and/or alcohol issues.  Until these are addressed, you can spend un-told millions and not solve the problem.

The other is, this is a free country.  No law against being homeless.  You can't force someone to live in a home.  You can't arrest someone simply because they choose not to live in a house or apartment.

And lets not kid ourselves.  Homeless live all over town.  Go to 51st and Lewis, 71st and Hwy 169, .... and they are easy to find.  Many of these folks would turn down any help at John 3:16 or the Salvation Army because they have chosen their own lifestyle.

[waterboy]

Agree with Gaspar and Wilbur for sure. But I travel a lot South of 91st and I have to say it is extremely rare to see these folks anywhere out here. Not even at the QT's. It is simply not comfortable for them. No sidewalks, no good corners to beg from and no obvious liquour stores, crack houses and pawn shops to frequent. I'm afraid it is centered outside of cake eaters country.

[JoeMommaBlake]

I appreciate the comments here and am in agreement about the lack of attention that is paid to issues like chemical dependency and mental illness.

I also agree that there are those that can not simply be helped by common job programs.

My understanding regarding the percentage of the homeless who are "chronically homeless" may be the only difference that I have. From my conversations with Steve Whitaker (exec director of John 3:16), I have come to understand that the majority of the homeless are not in fact chronic homeless.

quote:
From http://www.endhomelessness.org/section/policy/focusareas/chronic

Chronic homelessness is long-term or repeated homelessness accompanied by a disability. Many chronically homeless people have a serious mental illness like schizophrenia and/or alcohol or drug addiction. Most chronically homeless individuals have been in treatment programs, sometimes on dozens of occasions.

The federal government's definition of chronic homelessness includes homeless individuals with a disabling condition (substance use disorder, serious mental illness, developmental disability, or chronic physical illness or disability) who have been homeless either 1) continuously for one whole year, or 2) four or more times in the past three years.

Research reveals that between 10 to 20 percent of homeless single adults are chronically homeless. This translates into between 150,000 to 200,000 people who experience chronic homelessness.

I don't know the facts about these percentages and I'm definitely not an expert on the homeless. Instead, I'm just one who has volunteered and who has spent some time seeking information from those who spend their time serving the homeless.

Regardless, this is the exact reason why the public could benefit from some education about the homeless. I think it would help us all to know the truth about the make-up of our homeless population. Some exposure and education could lead to an increase in appropriate support, treatment, and funding for those that serve them.

quote:
From BierGarten:
I think the Tulsa World, I mean the City of Tulsa, is coming with too little too late here with their efforts to come up with ideas for spreading the homeless all accross Tulsa. Downtown has become, through decades of City policy, the hub of homeless services. Telling the John 3:16 Mission (which by the way takes ZERO of your tax dollars) that it can't more efficiently provide its services would have been crazy. Only a handful of downtown landowners and homeowners (most of whom bought their land after the Mission was there along with most all the other homeless services) are fighting the variance.

As far as that goes, I couldn't agree more. I hope that the right decision is made regarding the mission beds. I give great kudos to Steve and those that serve with him at the mission and hope for the sake of them and of the homeless who need their services that their permit is approved.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by JoeMommaBlake


The federal government's definition of chronic homelessness includes homeless individuals with a disabling condition (substance use disorder, serious mental illness, developmental disability, or chronic physical illness or disability) who have been homeless either 1) continuously for one whole year, or 2) four or more times in the past three years.

Research reveals that between 10 to 20 percent of homeless single adults are chronically homeless. This translates into between 150,000 to 200,000 people who experience chronic homelessness.

Wow!  Perhaps nationally, but if you spend any time with our local homeless you will understand that it's more like 90 to 95% chronic homelessness.  

I think some of the coastal states skew these results.  You can go to Southern California or Key West Florida where there are huge populations of homeless that are simply beach bums.  Sleeping on the warm sand at night and enjoying the freedom of that lifestyle.  I have met many of these folks (especially in Key West) and they are in many cases intelligent, educated people that have opted out of society.

I don't think you can apply national statistics to a local population and get a fair representation.

[cannon_fodder]

+1 on Key West bums.  Very entertaining and interesting stories.  I actually have several paintings I had framed from homeless people in Key West.

/tangent