How poor a city is Tulsa?

[RecycleMichael]

I used to be woefully underpaid.

I would give the bus driver my check as exact change.

[cannon_fodder]

Your numbers more closely reflect what I had expected to see.  But those numbers are also from a low-point in Tulsa and at the end of a great run by Portland.  From 2000-2004 Tulsa had a really hard time, from 2004 to now has pretty much been boom times.  If the Forbes top income growth stats for recent years are accurate, I'd like to think we have made strides in that regard.

Also interesting to see the family of 4 stats come up different than the standard median (more young professionals in Portland?).  

Again, getting the stats gives you some information - trying to interpret them is where the fun is.  Thanks for the info.

[TulsaFan-inTexas]

You really need to lay off the crack dude.

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle

quote:Originally posted by swake

quote:Originally posted by Wrinkle
Public Works Director, Charles Hardt, who makes over $165,000/year.

It takes over 2,500 'average' folks to make up for him alone.

You might just want to go on and pull out the old calculator on that.

O.K., I see many here have attended TPS at some point.

If one were to take 2,499 average incomes at $44,321 per year, the total would be....Bular, Bular, Bular???  That's right $110,758,179

Add in one person at $165,000/year giving us, $110,923,179.

Now, since we're talking averages, divide that by 2,499 + 1 ( = 2,500).

That gives us an AVERAGE ANNUAL WAGE of $44,369 which is approximately our ACTUAL annual average wage.

Since this number is somewhat higher than the actual annual average wage of $44,321, it would really take more than 2,499 (or even 2,500) average wage earners to make up for one wage of $165,000/year, such as Mr. Hardts, and maintain our actual annual average wage.

Any questions?

[pundit]

This is an interesting topic and I would like to make a couple of points. Averages don't really tell you much in that they don't say anything about the distribution of income. Averages don't tell how it feels to live in a place.

I have lived in several locations (Tulsa included) and would like to give my observations on Tulsa compared to these other places. These areas are:

Madison / Florham Park / Chatham, NJ
Dallas (Highland Park area)
Los Angeles (Santa Monica / Westwood area)
Houston (Galleria / River Oaks /West U /Memorial area)

I lived in Madison and Houston and had close relatives in Santa Monica and Dallas – been there so often I felt like I could have lived there. In Tulsa I lived in the 2200 block between Woodward Park and Utica Square.
Here is the point.

There are vast stretches of NJ (Newark, Elizabeth Camden etc), Houston (East, near South and near North), Dallas (South) and LA that are wasteland with crime, dumpy houses and the like.

Yet the the specific areas I mentioned above are so large, they are mostly self contained and have everything one needs. One can live their whole life there and see only upscale digs, great eating places, nice cars and the like. After a while, one gets the impression that the whole world is like that. Of course we know it isn't but perception is everything.

The problem with Tulsa that even in a nice area one cannot do much if anything without confronting poverty up close and personal. Where I used to live, if you went east and got much past Harvard it went downhill quick. North, once you hit 11th it was all over. If you went South, past 36th you hit the dumpy crackerboxes in Brookside. West was OK until you crossed the river and it was all over.

Averages do not tell everything.

[cks511]

Geesus man, the last time I checked those 'dumpy crackerboxes' in Brookside they were bringing six figures, average of course.

[cannon_fodder]

quote:The problem with Tulsa that even in a nice area one cannot do much if anything without confronting poverty up close and personal. Where I used to live, if you went east and got much past Harvard it went downhill quick. North, once you hit 11th it was all over. If you went South, past 36th you hit the dumpy crackerboxes in Brookside. West was OK until you crossed the river and it was all over.

Ouch.

I live in on of the "downhill" area's just East of Harvard.  I can walk in less than 10 blocks to a dozen restaurants, 3 places to get grocery items,  a couple bars, my dentist, a book store, an office supply store, an electronics store, several places to fix my car, a strip club, my eye doctor, a candy store, my son's Tae Kwon Do lessons, a movie rental place, a couple pharmacies...  ton's of places from my little slice of crap.

I'd like to think from Sheraton to the River and from 11th to Jenks is all pretty good territory to live in.  Unless anything under 10,000 Sq. Ft. is a cracker box or Ranch Acres is "going downhill."  Certainly we don't have the swaths of rich sub divisions like Dallas, but we also don't have entire suburbs that are crap.  Tulsa has many nice areas to build on and I hope they keep growing and getting better.

/not cheer leading, just don't think my neighborhood is "downhill."  Where you "used to live" is the center or property values in Tulsa so perhaps your level of acceptance is a little different than mine.

[swake]

quote:Originally posted by pundit

This is an interesting topic and I would like to make a couple of points. Averages don't really tell you much in that they don't say anything about the distribution of income. Averages don't tell how it feels to live in a place.

I have lived in several locations (Tulsa included) and would like to give my observations on Tulsa compared to these other places. These areas are:

Madison / Florham Park / Chatham, NJ
Dallas (Highland Park area)
Los Angeles (Santa Monica / Westwood area)
Houston (Galleria / River Oaks /West U /Memorial area)

I lived in Madison and Houston and had close relatives in Santa Monica and Dallas – been there so often I felt like I could have lived there. In Tulsa I lived in the 2200 block between Woodward Park and Utica Square.
Here is the point.

There are vast stretches of NJ (Newark, Elizabeth Camden etc), Houston (East, near South and near North), Dallas (South) and LA that are wasteland with crime, dumpy houses and the like.

Yet the the specific areas I mentioned above are so large, they are mostly self contained and have everything one needs. One can live their whole life there and see only upscale digs, great eating places, nice cars and the like. After a while, one gets the impression that the whole world is like that. Of course we know it isn't but perception is everything.

The problem with Tulsa that even in a nice area one cannot do much if anything without confronting poverty up close and personal. Where I used to live, if you went east and got much past Harvard it went downhill quick. North, once you hit 11th it was all over. If you went South, past 36th you hit the dumpy crackerboxes in Brookside. West was OK until you crossed the river and it was all over.

Averages do not tell everything.

Davaaz, is that you?

[BierGarten]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

Ha!

If you want to make money in the legal field, GET THE HELL OUT OF TULSA!  Attorney's in Tulsa make nothing compared to other markets, I imagine it holds true for support staff.  There are, of course, exceptions to the rule - but on average a starting attorney will make $20,000 more moving to Kansas City or Dallas than in Tulsa.

Painful.  Typing that $20,000 number is really painful.

If typing $20,000 is painful, consider the fact that you are actually lowballing the difference between the markets.  A first year associate at a large Tulsa firm makes $95,000.  A first year associate at a large Dallas or Houston firm makes $160,000.

[cannon_fodder]

I can count the number of new graduates that start in Tulsa at around $100K annually on my fingers.

I don't want to talk about this.  [xx(]

[BierGarten]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

I can count the number of new graduates that start in Tulsa at around $100K annually on my fingers.

I don't want to talk about this.  [xx(]

I don't mean to ignore your plea to not talk about this but you sparked my interest.

How many new graduates land $100K/year jobs in Tulsa every year?

I would say there are ten to fifteen such jobs every year for law school graduates.

I would assume some doctors starting right out of medical school make at least that much but I really don't know.  How many medical posisions for medical school graduates paying that much are filled every year in Tulsa?

Do investment bankers at BOK make 100K right out of MBA School?  How many of those types are hired every year?

What major categories need to be included in this discussion?  Dentists?  Engineers? Accountants (I don't think they make 100K/year right away even at the big accounting firms)?  Who else?

[TheArtist]

Wasnt it a Tulsa lawyer who just gave 15 mill to some easter college? Again, this 1 guy alone can probably "up average" a lot of lesser paid lawyers.

As for the perceptions thing. I agree that we do have some very poor areas right next to some wealthy areas. Those dumps on Brookside, while we know they cost a decent penny anymore, still for the most part look like dumps lol. Plus even here think of where the Bomasada development is going in. Currently very low income and trashy, will be more upscale. Its still an extremely mixed bag even in that area.

When I gave a friend of mine from Tucson the tour around town, I remember him commenting how he had never seen such a disparity in wealth before. Heck take Peoria for instance. Wander around Philbrook and that area, then go just 2 miles north and see people living in poverty and run down shacks.

Then beyond that there are the people we see every day. In many cities you can go to areas and see people who look well dressed and nice everywhere. Here, even in the "poshest" areas you run into quite ragged looking folk. Let alone the kind of people you see in the "average" areas. Its like the city is swarming with backwoods inbreeds that just staggered out of the hills of Arkansas or something. The sad thing is, my mom, who lives in NW Arkansas which has been a very fast growing area, doesnt like coming to Tulsa because of how poor it is. (they have a wholesale business and she says people here just dont buy like they do in other places). She wont even go to a Wal-Mart here because she hates how trashy they are here and how trashy looking the people are.  Now thats sad when people from Arkansas think we are poor and trashy lol.

[BierGarten]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Wasnt it a Tulsa lawyer who just gave 15 mill to some easter college? Again, this 1 guy alone can probably "up average" a lot of lesser paid lawyers.

That lawyer did not make that $15 million from lawyerin'.

[perspicuity85]

Cost of living comparison between Tulsa and other cities.

Per capita personal income stats for US MSAs.

Tulsa is not poor.

[pundit]

quote:Originally posted by TheArtist

Wasnt it a Tulsa lawyer who just gave 15 mill to some easter college? Again, this 1 guy alone can probably "up average" a lot of lesser paid lawyers.

As for the perceptions thing. I agree that we do have some very poor areas right next to some wealthy areas. Those dumps on Brookside, while we know they cost a decent penny anymore, still for the most part look like dumps lol. Plus even here think of where the Bomasada development is going in. Currently very low income and trashy, will be more upscale. Its still an extremely mixed bag even in that area.

When I gave a friend of mine from Tucson the tour around town, I remember him commenting how he had never seen such a disparity in wealth before. Heck take Peoria for instance. Wander around Philbrook and that area, then go just 2 miles north and see people living in poverty and run down shacks.

Then beyond that there are the people we see every day. In many cities you can go to areas and see people who look well dressed and nice everywhere. Here, even in the "poshest" areas you run into quite ragged looking folk. Let alone the kind of people you see in the "average" areas. Its like the city is swarming with backwoods inbreeds that just staggered out of the hills of Arkansas or something. The sad thing is, my mom, who lives in NW Arkansas which has been a very fast growing area, doesnt like coming to Tulsa because of how poor it is. (they have a wholesale business and she says people here just dont buy like they do in other places). She wont even go to a Wal-Mart here because she hates how trashy they are here and how trashy looking the people are.  Now thats sad when people from Arkansas think we are poor and trashy lol.

Thank you, the point is well-made.

[Renaissance]

It's weird how people can have such different perspectives.

Tulsa is, from any rational, objective standpoint, not a poor city.  And yet, some folks for whatever reason--dissatisfaction, ignorance, avoidance of cognitive dissonance--want to insist that it is, and the numbers are false or misleading or whatever.

But, the fact remains, Tulsa is not a poor city.  There are poor people in Tulsa, but Tulsa is not a poverty-stricken community.  

And as for disparity of wealth--try going from Beverly Hills to Compton in LA, or Kenwood to Woodlawn in Chicago, or just drive through Memphis or New Orleans.  Anyone who has never seen a disparity of wealth worse than Tulsa's has not traveled much at all.