Slower speeds limits needed in Tulsa?

[mrhaskellok]

quote:Originally posted by spoonbill

quote:Originally posted by mrhaskellok

quote:

Some cities have taken steps toward actively discouraging motor vehicle use through lower speed limits and difficulty in finding parking.  Copenhagen reduced speed limits in some areas to 30 kph or about 18 mph.  London instituted congestion pricing.  Most of these measures resulted in an increased mode share for walking, cycling, and mass transit.  And congestion pricing really did reduce traffic in central London.

It's true that reduced speeds result in markedly better crash survival for all road users.  If I recall right, 35 mph is the dividing line.  So if we reduced the speed limit city wide to 25, we could expect reduced pedestrian, cyclist, and motorist fatalities.  What are those lives worth when compared to gas mileage?

Another point: Oklahoma permits low speed golf carts to operate on streets with speed limits of 25 mph or less.  If the city speed limit were 25, more of these vehicles would be a normal part of traffic, and it could be expected that their design would be ideal for those speeds.  In other words, they would have the optimal speed vs fuel consumption.  But I honestly do not know if they emit more unburnt fuel and greenhouse gases than a car equipped with a catalytic converter.

Still, it would be nice to have lower speeds with lower overall noise levels.  A sedate pace in traffic would contribute to livability issues, and again, there's no way to equate that in dollars.

I agree on both points.  I was just having that discussion with someone.  My background is emergency services (Combat Medic army, Firefighter EMT civilian) and I have seen first hand how devastating the increased speeds can have on people and cars.  Sure, we would all get somewhere faster, but all of us agreeing that 40k people a year is an acceptable sacrifice for our inconvenience is sort of like committing national negligence.  

Of course we can't equate for MISTAKES other people make like driving left of center, but again, my point is we have already surrendered certain responsibilities to our local government (safe driving speed), why can't we openly address the large scale carnage that is occurring on our streets daily.    
Final point on this then I will shut up...[][][]  Auto accidents still account for more deaths of people under 75 than any cancer or heart failure or anything else.  We are very willing, at least it appears that way sometimes, to change our lifestyle to minimize the risk of say heart failure, but why are we not  willing to slow down...an act that may actually save far more lives that if we all went to the gym.  We need to value life more and focus on building safer roads and enforce the laws to the fullest extent if we do violate these laws.  I get peeved when people complain about getting a speeding ticket for doing 75 down a two lane hwy.  I don't think people realize that they are FAR more likely to die AND kill whoever they hit at that speed then even at 65mph.  Don't believe me just do a ride along with your local ambulance service for a week...you will get to see what I mean.

WHEW!  Sorry, just got out of a council meeting and I am obviously all worked up!  []

Lovin every minute of it!

Speed limits don't work unless harshly enforced. . .driving away traffic and making for a poor city atmosphere.

The solution is psychological methods of road development.  Decrease setbacks so that buildings but up to sidewalks and are closer to the road.  This causes drivers to slow down naturally and makes for a better pedestrian environment.  

Add curves to long residential and city roads when developing them or offset the grid at some intersections.

Love that too!  []

Yeah, I am familure with that concept.  Over the long term it would be great to adopt those principles, but for right now speed limit signs are cheaper.[]

[cannon_fodder]

People keep talking about "RESIDENTIAL ROADS" but not specifying what they mean.

Do you mean 29th St. through the neighborhood... or Yale?  Both are residential in that they have housing on them.

and again, I've lived in sub divisions with an 18mph speed limit - it's a joke.  Likewise my college town had a thoroughfare set at 30 mph.  In either case people drove the speed they were comfortable at (probably 25/45 respectively) without regard to the posted limit.

Why would Tulsa be any different?

[mrhaskellok]

quote:Originally posted by cannon_fodder

People keep talking about "RESIDENTIAL ROADS" but not specifying what they mean.

Do you mean 29th St. through the neighborhood... or Yale?  Both are residential in that they have housing on them.

and again, I've lived in sub divisions with an 18mph speed limit - it's a joke.  Likewise my college town had a thoroughfare set at 30 mph.  In either case people drove the speed they were comfortable at (probably 25/45 respectively) without regard to the posted limit.

Why would Tulsa be any different?

I agree CF, BUT, don't you give some weight to enforcment?  On 51 hwy, don't know if it is still the case, but it was 55mph from Coweta to Tulsa.  Everyone wanted to drive 65, but I always drove 55 and wasn't passed by every car on the road.  I didn't use a radar gun but I think that the average speed was lower than on a road posted 75.  I think you are right, people will drive in the comfort range, but I believe humans can grow accustomed to doing something not "safe" if the consequences are acutely obvious.  

I don't want to argue about the validity of of lower speeds because we probably tend to agree, but I am interested to know what you think about how behaviors would change if at all.  

Everyone has seen those radar signs that display your speed limit.  They have been proven over and over again to slow traffic down.  By simply making the driver aware of their speed (and how it may cost them to break the law) people tend to slow down.

What do you think?

[cannon_fodder]

I think that works well in instances where the speed limit is already reasonable or there is a good reason for slowing down (school zones, residential neighborhood, speed reduced coming into town).  But outside of that, people generally ignore them.  They are speed advisories, and if they don't take it as good advice they'll do their own thing.

Enforcement is a deterrent, but < 10 over it is a moderate one and not worth the cops time.  Not too mention police generally have more important things to do and can't be every where.   So I have little credence in enforcement as an effective tool.  

I guess I view this potential as making everyone a criminal.  I think the best way to enforce speed limits on surface streets is with light timing - make it so you hit most of the lights going the speed limit and faster than that you will have to stop,  at which point regular drivers figure it out fast (see downtown Tulsa before the construction).

[EricP]

quote:Originally posted by mrhaskellok
Everyone has seen those radar signs that display your speed limit.  They have been proven over and over again to slow traffic down.  By simply making the driver aware of their speed (and how it may cost them to break the law) people tend to slow down.

I think I am in the 25% of people that like to see how high a readout I can get whilst I pass by..

The moral of the story for some drivers like me is, I don't care if it is going to save me a few dollars.. I CAN NOT DRIVE 55. It would be like drinking half a bottle of nyQuil because it would feel like the road is moving in such slow motion on the highway. Maybe when I am 70 I will feel differently, but for now I go as fast as conditions and the visual processing speed of my brain balanced with my risk analysis department will allow me to go

[mrhaskellok]

Our premises are going to require we define "Reasonable".  If you poll 100 people and they find that 85 is reasonable for turnpikes, should that then be the speed limit?  Or should we determine it based on crash data or safety sets.  Or do we also factor in environmental impacts as well.  My position simply seeks to find the best possible balance...
1. a speed that will get us where we need to go in a time period that is able to be validated by necessity (easily set with some analysis I believe);
2. a speed that will not dramatically increase the fatality rates on our highway AND that take into consideration the type of road being traveled (barriers, shoulder width or absence of shoulder, volume of traffic, average distance of commute, etc.)
3. real environmental impact study...we can't talk about solving our air pollution problems and then ignore one relatively simple solution, if indeed it is a solution, which after looking the data, it does appear that there could be certain categories of vehicles that, after reducing speeds, would decrease emissions.

On another note, if the state does not want to have emission inspections, can Tulsa do this independently?  If you work or live in Tulsa your vehicle must pass a simple emission tests.  Perhaps during testing we could also gather emission information for all the vehicles in relationship to their RPM, quantify that data then we may have a better idea as to what speed range is average for our applications.

Just ideas, I enjoy discussing this with you CF.  

[EricP]

quote:Originally posted by mrhaskellok


Our premises are going to require we define "Reasonable".  If you poll 100 people and they find that 85 is reasonable for turnpikes, should that then be the speed limit?  Or should we determine it based on crash data or safety sets.  Or do we also factor in environmental impacts as well.  My position simply seeks to find the best possible balance...
1. a speed that will get us where we need to go in a time period that is able to be validated by necessity (easily set with some analysis I believe);
2. a speed that will not dramatically increase the fatality rates on our highway AND that take into consideration the type of road being traveled (barriers, shoulder width or absence of shoulder, volume of traffic, average distance of commute, etc.)
3. real environmental impact study...we can't talk about solving our air pollution problems and then ignore one relatively simple solution, if indeed it is a solution, which after looking the data, it does appear that there could be certain categories of vehicles that, after reducing speeds, would decrease emissions.

On another note, if the state does not want to have emission inspections, can Tulsa do this independently?  If you work or live in Tulsa your vehicle must pass a simple emission tests.  Perhaps during testing we could also gather emission information for all the vehicles in relationship to their RPM, quantify that data then we may have a better idea as to what speed range is average for our applications.

Just ideas, I enjoy discussing this with you CF.  

If you are talking emmissions, then maybe inspections that would get idiots with horribly out of tune cars off the road would actually have an impact. There are some seriously unsafe and poorly maintained cars on our roads. I swear in the past 4 months I have seen more taillights out than I have ever seen in my life. Sometimes the car I am following has lost a side taillight AND the center brake light and I can't even tell if they are turning or just braking erratically. That's if I can see their car through the clouds of smoke billowing from their exhaust.

[mrhaskellok]

quote: If you are talking emmissions, then maybe inspections that would get idiots with horribly out of tune cars off the road would actually have an impact. There are some seriously unsafe and poorly maintained cars on our roads. I swear in the past 4 months I have seen more taillights out than I have ever seen in my life. Sometimes the car I am following has lost a side taillight AND the center brake light and I can't even tell if they are turning or just braking erratically. That's if I can see their car through the clouds of smoke billowing from their exhaust.

What!?  You mean those red lens are supposed to be lit up?  When I started working in Tulsa I took those bulbs out because I thought Tulsa had some sort of environmental deal going on...I mean , don't laugh at me, the logic is there...first I noticed all the street lights were out, so I naturally assumed we were all removing our tail lights too so we could save money there as well.

Boy do I feel like a burby!

[][][]

Disclaimer:  Not a single word written above is true.

[Red Arrow]

There are plenty of self appointed lower speed limit enforcers.  They drive side by side on our 4 lane arterials (Memorial) at 10 to 15 below the posted speed limit with no one in front of them and in good weather.

Best gas mileage will depend on the car design, road conditions and things like head wind. Having driven before, during, and after the curse of the 55 MPH era, I usually got my best gas mileage on expressways between 60 and 65 MPH.  One of the family cars NEVER got more than 12 mpg when we lived east of 70 MPH limits (mostly 55-60) in the 1960s.  That car (63 Buick LeSabre) got up to 17 mpg at 70 MPH when we moved to Tulsa.

Our roads and driver capabilities won't support it but when I was in Germany in 1995 most drivers kept their speed between 85 and 100 mph (135-160 km/hr) on the Autobahn.  Most statistics I've seen show their accident rate to be similar to our interstates.  I have seen data that the interstates were designed to be safe at 85 MPH in 1950s cars.  Too bad the interstate highways are mostly in such bad shape.

[patric]

Speed Humps Hamper Buses, Fire Trucks

http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=9023625

[sgrizzle]

Some in my neighborhood want them and talked to the city planner who handles speed humps he wants to put 17 humps in my neighborhood of 120 houses.

[Vision 2025]

quote:Originally posted by mrhaskellok

Should the Tulsa city council consider lowering speed limits in Tulsa as an effort to reduce emission this summer and encourage less sprawl?

only if you want to overwhelm the new E-ticket system.

[nathanm]

quote:Originally posted by patric

Speed Humps Hamper Buses, Fire Trucks

http://www.newson6.com/global/story.asp?s=9023625

I'm surprised the fire insurance companies haven't figured this out yet and started raising rates in cities (or neighborhoods) where these things are prevalent.

Sort of like they figure out how close the nearest fire station and hydrant are, they ought to figure out how many speed humps there are between your home and the fire station.

Since I left Fayetteville, they went crazy with the things. I was over there the other day and found three speed humps in less than a quarter mile on a road that nobody drove more than 5 over on in the first place.

Certainly when deployed in that manner, it's just a bunch of feel good BS.

[Hawkins]

quote:Originally posted by mrhaskellok

Should the Tulsa city council consider lowering speed limits in Tulsa as an effort to reduce emission this summer and encourage less sprawl?

This is just one person's opinion, but having lived in Dallas for a time, it seems to me that Tulsans suffer from severely over-docile driving habits as it is.

Is it something in the water? Yield doesn't mean stop at the end of an expressway ramp. Right-turn green arrow comes on DIRECTLY after a red light in most circumstances. WAKE UP TULSANS, learn to drive in a forward motion without bicycle pedals, please!!

Slowing traffic down even more would be enough to cause me to have to go out and buy a Batmobile. That way I could just run over these slow moving cars.

[Red Arrow]

quote:Originally posted by Hawkins

quote:Originally posted by mrhaskellok

Should the Tulsa city council consider lowering speed limits in Tulsa as an effort to reduce emission this summer and encourage less sprawl?

This is just one person's opinion, but having lived in Dallas for a time, it seems to me that Tulsans suffer from severely over-docile driving habits as it is.

Is it something in the water? Yield doesn't mean stop at the end of an expressway ramp. Right-turn green arrow comes on DIRECTLY after a red light in most circumstances. WAKE UP TULSANS, learn to drive in a forward motion without bicycle pedals, please!!

Slowing traffic down even more would be enough to cause me to have to go out and buy a Batmobile. That way I could just run over these slow moving cars.

You just haven't discovered the secret code yet. A sign on an expressway that indicates 65 MPH as the speed limit really means not to drive within 10 to 15 MPH of 65, ie: go faster than 75 or slower than 50. If you are going slow, be sure to be in the inside (left) lanes.  On arterials a 45 sign really means about 35. Yield means stop as you have indicated. STOP means slow down to the speed limit in residential areas. Basically Tulsa drivers have embraced the digital age. They are stopped or they are going 35 MPH.