The turning point

[waterboy]

I was a Hillary supporter early on but as the race unfolded I began to question that choice. There was one point where I realized I could no longer support her candidacy. When it appeared to me she had adopted too much of the national republican style of campaigning I took notice. When Florida and Michigan decided they would ignore the agreed upon party rules and jump in front of other primaries, I took notice. I didn't fault her for campaigning in those states as it would lay the foundation for the general election. No, it was the spin which continues today, that Michigan and Florida should have their delegates count and the bald faced lie that she "won" an election where others didn't campaign and weren't even on the ballot that changed my mind! Suddenly every spin, every half truth, every effort to win at all costs even if it meant alluding to race, co-opting republican views and using religion came into sharp focus. Having seen the results of that stuff for the last decade or more I am not interested in supporting it within my own party.

That is why the concept of change resonates with many of us. Not the details demanded by the opposition for a myriad of programs so that they may then tear the candidate apart. Details that will likely be forged in the legislative arena anyway.  What appeals is the idea that the whole process of decisionmaking will be approached differently. Not from some idealogical extremists from either end that control a puppet leader but from an analysis of the facts and reasoned debate. Yeah, naive sounding I know, but I prefer that to the cynicism and manipulation that McCain/Clinton rely on. It seems both McCain and Clinton have lost themselves. Both had impressed me in the past but I don't recognize them anymore.

From my perspective, this election is about returning to some sort of integrity, vision and truth. A return to the concept of the president as an insightful, well educated, trustworthy leader of a team, not a slow witted, irrefutable, tyrant leader of a corrupt political machine. A leader who listens to his constituents, even if by their proxies, rather than punishing those who disagree. In short, someone unlike McCain/Clinton.

[pmcalk]

I completely agree with you, WB.  I am so sick of politicians speaking to us as though we are four year olds who cannot see through the stupidity of their arguments.  One thing that gives me hope is that I believe Hillary's losses on Tuesday had a great deal to do with her "gas tax holiday" scheme.  People are not stupid.  They realize that these "quick fixes" are nothing more than attempts to placate the masses and ignore the huge problems that face our country.  The economy is in shambles, houses are being foreclosed, we're spending billions on a war that seems to have no end.  So what does our Government do?  Buy us off with a $600 check.  

Obama isn't perfect.  I am sure deep down he is a politician at heart, and sometimes he will do the same things as Hillary, Bush & McCain.  But I hope by voting for him, we are sending a message to the politicians that this is how we want you to behave.  Talk to us as adults, give us honest answers, and stop the spin.  We know better.

[TheArtist]

Well said.

I too have gotten the sense that Obama doesnt want to get too far into details because he, or anyone else, cant see how things will actually unfold, what the facts will be economically and politically when each objective is tackled. A bunch of "read my lips no new taxes" type promises in order to get elected but that have a good chance of not being able to get met in reality... doesnt do anyone any good.

People seem to want the quick, easy sounding "solution" to high gas prices (same for the war, the economy, or anything for that matter). Cut taxes, charge the oil companies.... we know, or we should know, that its more about alternative energies, fuel economy, indeed... possibly opening up oil reserves in a responsible way in the gulf or Alaska.... but to say those things would be political suicide in this culture of quick easy, borrow now, pay later.

I would rather a candidate state their principals, see how they think, how they act, see how they go about things, how they find solutions, work with others, the directions those solutions would be in,,,, Not make narrow promises to get elected, but state ones core beliefs and be able to trust that whatever situation arose or existed, the person would make descisions based on their philosophies, their beliefs, towards the over arching goals and objectives they laid out.

Specifics get hammered out at the table with people of opposing views. Plus, as the world and the economy changes, who knows what the specific situation "on the ground" will be when each matter is addressed.

[RecycleMichael]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy
I didn't fault her for campaigning in those states as it would lay the foundation for the general election.

That is just untrue.

Obama had appearances in Florida and ran ads in markets that border Florida the week before the primary.

Hillary did neither.

Hillary followed the rules. Yes, she wants those votes to count. 600,000 more people voted for her in Michigan and Florida than Obama.

No matter what Obama says, you guys act like it is truth. No matter what Hillary says, you guys act like it is a lie.

Guess what. They are both politicians. Their campaign staffs have played nasty, dirty politics. One doesn't talk to us like we are "adults" and the other one like we are children. It is just the way you want to hear it.

[Gaspar]

She's not done yet RM & Waterboy!  

She may challenge the constitutionality of the whole Democrat primary process in court before the convention.  

You may get to vote for her yet!


[}:)]

[cannon_fodder]

Waterboy, I have never like Hillary.  I don't hide that.  But I accept her as a strong candidate and a fighter.  Nonetheless, I agree with your assessment on the spin - it is beyond responsible spin.  "The tie was broken!" indicates either a wiliness to say whatever is in her interest or pure dillusion.

RM, I think most people look at it as a lie - because it is.  A sizable deficit is a tie and losing a large amount of ground breaks that tie in her favor.  And she was more than happy to write off Florida and Michigan until it became apperent that she needed them.  The notion that she didn't show any interest in Florida while Obama was flirting with the issue is another Hillary spin:

quote:(AP) Stung by her lopsided loss to Barack Obama in South Carolina, Hillary Rodham Clinton is trying to shift her momentum in Florida - even though its Democratic primary won't count for much.

Like her rivals, Clinton has agreed to a pledge imposed by national party leaders not to publicly campaign in the state. But after South Carolina, Clinton was skating up against the edge of that agreement and trying to lend some credibility to the outcome Tuesday.

She arrived in Florida on Sunday for two events - both closed fundraisers, in keeping with the pledge not to campaign. She clearly winked at that pledge with her arrival, joking about the warm weather and positioning herself so photographers had a palm tree for a backdrop.

Here's Hillary in Florida in Janurary.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/01/28/politics/main3760117.shtml

If he was in the same position perhaps Obama would be as desperate to grab power, but he isn't.  Hillary's demands on Florida and Michigan (which wouldn't even be outcome determinative) verify my initial feeling that she will do and say anything for power.  Which is the image that too many had of her going in to the race.

Again, I can't speak for Obama's character in a similar situation, but I have not been impressed by Hillary's retake on those states.  At the time it was to enforce rules and maintain order and she agreed with it,  now the Democratic party is violating their civil rights and it's horrible.

[iplaw]

quote:I completely agree with you, WB. I am so sick of politicians speaking to us as though we are four year olds who cannot see through the stupidity of their arguments. One thing that gives me hope is that I believe Hillary's losses on Tuesday had a great deal to do with her "gas tax holiday" scheme. People are not stupid. They realize that these "quick fixes" are nothing more than attempts to placate the masses and ignore the huge problems that face our country. The economy is in shambles, houses are being foreclosed, we're spending billions on a war that seems to have no end. So what does our Government do? Buy us off with a $600 check.

Isn't that what Obama is proposing, yet another worthless $250 stimulus check for "the middle class?"

[FOTD]

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:I completely agree with you, WB. I am so sick of politicians speaking to us as though we are four year olds who cannot see through the stupidity of their arguments. One thing that gives me hope is that I believe Hillary's losses on Tuesday had a great deal to do with her "gas tax holiday" scheme. People are not stupid. They realize that these "quick fixes" are nothing more than attempts to placate the masses and ignore the huge problems that face our country. The economy is in shambles, houses are being foreclosed, we're spending billions on a war that seems to have no end. So what does our Government do? Buy us off with a $600 check.

Isn't that what Obama is proposing, yet another worthless $250 stimulus check for "the middle class?"

NO

[Hometown]

The stereotypes of the candidates that have evolved over the course of this campaign are divorced from reality.  Most people are buying into an ideal when they support Obama.  If you think Clinton's rather tame punches are Republican-like, you have forgotten Swift Boat and a 100 other Republican tactics.

I haven't seen one thing new and different about Obama.  But I have seen my party crucify itself over and over with candidates that can't win a general election.

[Gaspar]

quote:Originally posted by Gaspar

She's not done yet RM & Waterboy!  

She may challenge the constitutionality of the whole Democrat primary process in court before the convention.  

You may get to vote for her yet!


[}:)]

Love it when my uninformed "crazy" predictions come true.  Hillary just sent an open letter to the Obama campaign (12:00 today) urging them to agree to pursue seating Michigan and Florida.

Does anyone really think that Obama is going to say "Hmm, Ok Hillary. You're right.  We should let their votes (for you ) count"?

Does anyone think that a simple letter like this increases her chances of influencing super-delegates (if anything it damages her chances)?

Why would she do such a thing, formally and publicly?
What possible purpose could it serve?

Answer:
She is laying groundwork.  She is performing due diligence work necessary so that she can mount a legal case against the DNC.  

Because the media is involved, Obama will have to respond.  His answer will have to be NO.  The moment that happens her legal case will begin. She IS going to challenge the constitutionality of not seating FL and MI in a presidential primary.  She's going to fight the Whole Democrat Party!

You go girl!

Come on Lawyer types, am I wrong?  []

[waterboy]

Frankly, I'm more than a little surprised at the bitterness HT and RM show over this likely outcome. I know you are both invested in this candidate but honestly, she made several key mistakes in assembling a team, misjudging the character of the electorate and running as an experienced (read "same ole bs") insider. She then reinforced the image of an ambitious she devil by using the very same tactics she accused the right of abusing her with for the last decade. Meanwhile Obama reacted with restraint and a calm demeanor, while strengthening his fundraising efforts. Whether it was deliberate or a Chauncey Gardener persona doesn't even matter. It showed he would not be the same 'ol bs.

And the assumptions you guys make that paint Obama supporters as naive children who swallow everything our candidate says and we're in for a big ***** slap in the fall is way too condescending. Dare I say...elitist?  I make my judgements as to veracity of campaign blathering by running them through the framework of multiple sources of opinion. CNN, MSNBC, Fox (as long as Coulter isn't around), Huffpo, a smattering of the three other networks, magazines, blogs, forums, radio, and my mom's ability to find stuff on the internet that defies description. I wouldn't for a moment take any candidates remarks as gospel. I keep in mind their potential biases or conflicts and then....Presto! On opinion is formed!

I may not be as able to defend that opinion as well as folks who spend their lives looking for conspiracy, greed, corruption and fraud but it works for me. I'm guessing a lot of people do the same.

[iplaw]

quote:Originally posted by FOTD

quote:Originally posted by iplaw

quote:I completely agree with you, WB. I am so sick of politicians speaking to us as though we are four year olds who cannot see through the stupidity of their arguments. One thing that gives me hope is that I believe Hillary's losses on Tuesday had a great deal to do with her "gas tax holiday" scheme. People are not stupid. They realize that these "quick fixes" are nothing more than attempts to placate the masses and ignore the huge problems that face our country. The economy is in shambles, houses are being foreclosed, we're spending billions on a war that seems to have no end. So what does our Government do? Buy us off with a $600 check.

Isn't that what Obama is proposing, yet another worthless $250 stimulus check for "the middle class?"

NO

Barack Obama has come up with a "stimulus package"....outright payments of $250 for lower and lower-middle class and retired people (with a possible extra $250 later).

Maybe you should actually do some research into the candidate that you're voting for?

[RecycleMichael]

Waterboy is right to notice how bitter I am becoming on this race.

I am just amazed at how Hillary is treated. The news media just act like she is the devil and the Obama people cry whenever she does anything that she is not playing fair and "changing the rules."

I know that when you, pmcalk, gaspar and others have turned away from her, she probably can't win the election. But I also feel a need to defend her when other posters who I don't respect as much attack her unfairly.

She has been a great democrat. Her voting record reflects my views almost 95% of the time. She changed the way that first ladies will work in the future and fought for universal health care more than any other Senator. Her life has been scrutinized more than any other candidate we ever had running for President. Yet she gets no respect. People have called her a *****, yet can't name one thing to back up that perception.

Because she was married to Bill others have spread generalizations about her. They have attacked her every motive and continue to write such phrases as "she will say anything to get elected." She is treated with all the disdain that we have for politicians and even lumped in with President Bush for unfavorable ratings.

She is a classy woman who has spent a lifetime in public service. She deserves better. She picked a bad time to run for President because Obama has done a better job in getting the strategy it takes to win delegates. Now she is getting accused of killing Obama's chances because she thinks she can win in 2012.

Yes. I am getting bitter. I am tired of the constant attack on her from the republicans, the media, and the Obama people. It is the Obama people who hurt the most. They are mostly democrats who have decided that attacking her is the best thing that they can do to help him.

[cannon_fodder]

I figured it out...

On Tuesday Hillary saw the tide turn and won the day if you only count black voters as 3/5's of a vote.  

Sorry, I couldn't resist.  She said nor implied any such thing.  Just thought I'd try to get someone to call me a Nazi so we could end this thread...

[Hometown]

quote:Originally posted by waterboy

Frankly, I'm more than a little surprised at the bitterness HT and RM show over this likely outcome. I know you are both invested in this candidate but honestly, she made several key mistakes in assembling a team, misjudging the character of the electorate and running as an experienced (read "same ole bs") insider. She then reinforced the image of an ambitious she devil by using the very same tactics she accused the right of abusing her with for the last decade. Meanwhile Obama reacted with restraint and a calm demeanor, while strengthening his fundraising efforts. Whether it was deliberate or a Chauncey Gardener persona doesn't even matter. It showed he would not be the same 'ol bs.

And the assumptions you guys make that paint Obama supporters as naive children who swallow everything our candidate says and we're in for a big ***** slap in the fall is way too condescending. Dare I say...elitist?  I make my judgements as to veracity of campaign blathering by running them through the framework of multiple sources of opinion. CNN, MSNBC, Fox (as long as Coulter isn't around), Huffpo, a smattering of the three other networks, magazines, blogs, forums, radio, and my mom's ability to find stuff on the internet that defies description. I wouldn't for a moment take any candidates remarks as gospel. I keep in mind their potential biases or conflicts and then....Presto! On opinion is formed!

I may not be as able to defend that opinion as well as folks who spend their lives looking for conspiracy, greed, corruption and fraud but it works for me. I'm guessing a lot of people do the same.

Personally, I have never had a reaction like this to a probable nominee of ours.  I am very unhappy and as I say, if there was anywhere else to go I would.

Don't think of me as an individual, think of me as a demographic or 50 percent of the party.

Obama has done no outreach to Clinton supporters and he best move very carefully on this issue.