City Furloughs

[ifsandbuts]

Not a problem until you have to call 911 to save yourself or your family and no one is available.  Maybe someone from the mayor's office can come save you.
The reality of the situation is that we are different.

Not a problem until you turn the faucet on and there is no water. Not a problem until the creek rises and floods your home. Not a problem until your trash piles up. Not a problem until your house catches fire. Not a problem until the streetlights go out and you get stuck in traffic at every intersection. Reality is that I haven't spoken to an officer all year. I obey the speed limit and do my best to avoid conflict. I live in a good neighborhood and no one on my block has needed a policeman for a long time. Most of the city services we need every day. We do need an occasional ambulance or some street repairs, and weekly or daily need a trash truck, and of course, water, waste water and storm sewers. Other city workers are important, too. 

[nathanm]

Police to continue boost to detective division

Detectives who work all sorts of cases are fine, but the folks who are just working on one media-friendly sort of case are a waste. I know sometimes they are paid for in part with federal money and that if they weren't doing that they wouldn't be there at all, which is fine, but it's not as if we need more people doggedly working vice or whatever. Warrants? Sure. It's ridiculous how people can have outstanding felony warrants for years before being picked up, but it seems like that's something everybody should be doing some of.

And just so I'm clear, I'm not knocking police in general. I have immense respect for you guys and what you do for us. I know I'm not cut out for it. The only beef I have is with the people making stupid decisions on where to place manpower and those who say that we're at the point of a public safety issue, which I disagree with. I don't think even 50 more officers would make much of a dent in anything save perhaps the traffic ticket count. We need smarter use of the resources we have, not more.

[MH2010]

Not a problem until you turn the faucet on and there is no water. Not a problem until the creek rises and floods your home. Not a problem until your trash piles up. Not a problem until your house catches fire. Not a problem until the streetlights go out and you get stuck in traffic at every intersection. Reality is that I haven't spoken to an officer all year. I obey the speed limit and do my best to avoid conflict. I live in a good neighborhood and no one on my block has needed a policeman for a long time. Most of the city services we need every day. We do need an occasional ambulance or some street repairs, and weekly or daily need a trash truck, and of course, water, waste water and storm sewers. Other city workers are important, too. 
[/quote

You really want to get into this argument about trash verses someone breaking into your house or trying to kill them or take their vehicle? You really think that a creek rises will be stopped by a city worker running to our house and stopping the flood? You really think that no streetlights will stop people traveling at night? (I guess the headlights on your car don't work and you don't remember when Mayor Laforturne turned the lights off on the B.A.)  I'm glad you live in a low crime neighborhood.  However, not everyone is as fortunate as you.  Some people live where crime is a problem. Some people are victims.  Some people are afraid at night.  Some people have to call 911 to save themselves or their families.

[ifsandbuts]

Sigh. By your logic, you are automatically more important than any other possible worker of any kind. And while that seems to be the view of almost every police officer I have ever known or worked with, it is obviously much more complicated than that, and requires a balance, which is a big part of why we elect people -- to figure out the best way to allocate limited resources to give us a safe AND healthy, educated, livable, etc. community.

Sure, if a robber is facing me down, at that moment I'd prefer a police office rather than a water repairman. However, if my water has been shut off for two days, unless the officer is also a plumber, he's useless, and in the grand scheme of things, I can live a lot longer without a police officer than I can clean water. If my child faces a life-endangering emergency, at that moment, the surgeon is the most important person -- unless it is the crew that built the street to the hospital or the ambulance driver that speeds my son there. The most important person in the world is the crossing guard the moment my 7-year-old crosses the busy street, the school nurse who hands over the inhaler during an asthma attack, or the teacher who taught him to read. Do I think a police officer is inherently more important than ANY of those people? Sorry, absolutely not.

Public safety is VERY important and a well-run police force is essential to a society, but so are all the other things I mentioned. So no, you don't get some kind of freebie pass saying you are MORE important than everyone else and entitled to keep right on sucking up the lion's share of the resources when everyone else on the team is making a sacrifice for the overall good.

[MH2010]

Sigh. By your logic, you are automatically more important than any other possible worker of any kind. And while that seems to be the view of almost every police officer I have ever known or worked with, it is obviously much more complicated than that, and requires a balance, which is a big part of why we elect people -- to figure out the best way to allocate limited resources to give us a safe AND healthy, educated, livable, etc. community.

Sure, if a robber is facing me down, at that moment I'd prefer a police office rather than a water repairman. However, if my water has been shut off for two days, unless the officer is also a plumber, he's useless, and in the grand scheme of things, I can live a lot longer without a police officer than I can clean water. If my child faces a life-endangering emergency, at that moment, the surgeon is the most important person -- unless it is the crew that built the street to the hospital or the ambulance driver that speeds my son there. The most important person in the world is the crossing guard the moment my 7-year-old crosses the busy street, the school nurse who hands over the inhaler during an asthma attack, or the teacher who taught him to read. Do I think a police officer is inherently more important than ANY of those people? Sorry, absolutely not.

Public safety is VERY important and a well-run police force is essential to a society, but so are all the other things I mentioned. So no, you don't get some kind of freebie pass saying you are MORE important than everyone else and entitled to keep right on sucking up the lion's share of the resources when everyone else on the team is making a sacrifice for the overall good.

Double sighhhhhhhh, Do you actually believe that the city of Tulsa employs surgeons, crossing guards, school nurses and teachers?  You should probably do some more research about who the city of Tulsa employs.

Anyway, the thing you are missing is that yes, all city services are essential and important. However, if a water main breaks and you don't have water, it is not an emergency. If the city needs public works workers, they can call them in from home if they are furloughed.  It may take a few hours but they will be there when they are needed.  If a street is damaged, the city can shut off the street and people can us the other streets to get somewhere until the street workers are called in.

If your house is on fire and there are less fireman on duty because of the furloughs, then there is an increased chance that your house may burn to the ground because they may be busy with other fires.  If you get scared and call 911 because someone is breaking into your home, or someone is trying to hurt your family, the police response may be alot longer because officers are on furlough.

I personally want enough police and fireman on duty that if I have to call them, they show up in the least amount of time possible. If my water stops at my house or a big pothole shows up on my street, then I'm okay with taking a few hours or maybe a day or two to fix.

[RecycleMichael]

Do you actually believe that the city of Tulsa employs surgeons, crossing guards, school nurses and teachers?  You should probably do some more research about who the city of Tulsa employs.

You should do more research...the City of Tulsa does employ the school crossing guards...

http://www.tulsaworld.com/news/article.aspx?articleID=070721_1_A15_spanc52771&allcom=1&sortcom=r

[MH2010]

"Crossing guards are paid $7.55 per hour and work from three to five hours per day"

Wow. I stand corrected.  Maybe they can start taking 911 calls. 

[RecycleMichael]

$7.55 an hour times five hours times five days a week is over $800 a month.

[tulsa_fan]

So may pages of comments here, maybe I already missed this one.  The issue with the Police furlough, for me (and yes, I'm married to one, but I also live and work in corporate land) is that's fine, give them the furloughs, but that doesn't change the minimum manning levels required.  You put one officer on furlough, then you call another officer in and pay him overtime because you don't have enough officers to safely work.  It is already happening everyday, you require officers to take time off, it will only get worse.  I think there a million fixes to improve the department, but furlough for officers will not save the City a dime and I would bet a joe momma's pizza (which I had for the first time last night) it will actually cost the city more money than they are paying now

[waterboy]

Sigh. By your logic, you are automatically more important than any other possible worker of any kind. And while that seems to be the view of almost every police officer I have ever known or worked with, it is obviously much more complicated than that, and requires a balance, which is a big part of why we elect people -- to figure out the best way to allocate limited resources to give us a safe AND healthy, educated, livable, etc. community.

Sure, if a robber is facing me down, at that moment I'd prefer a police office rather than a water repairman. However, if my water has been shut off for two days, unless the officer is also a plumber, he's useless, and in the grand scheme of things, I can live a lot longer without a police officer than I can clean water. If my child faces a life-endangering emergency, at that moment, the surgeon is the most important person -- unless it is the crew that built the street to the hospital or the ambulance driver that speeds my son there. The most important person in the world is the crossing guard the moment my 7-year-old crosses the busy street, the school nurse who hands over the inhaler during an asthma attack, or the teacher who taught him to read. Do I think a police officer is inherently more important than ANY of those people? Sorry, absolutely not.

Public safety is VERY important and a well-run police force is essential to a society, but so are all the other things I mentioned. So no, you don't get some kind of freebie pass saying you are MORE important than everyone else and entitled to keep right on sucking up the lion's share of the resources when everyone else on the team is making a sacrifice for the overall good.

Well thought out. I'm sure every city employee is convinced that their job is quite important. At least they should. Cities can and do operate with skeleton crews at all levels, including police and fire. They are no more important than the water treatment plant employees or the sewer treatment employees. Without those two operating well you couldn't hire enough police and fire to deal with the resulting chaos.

MH, you're concerns are valid but seriously, you are not indispensable or more important than water. A good tornado knocks out electricity, water supplies and transportation and people start dying without help from criminals.

Here's my suggestion. Let the city employees vote on whether they want to eliminate jobs or furlough all employees 8 days a year. Let them also vote on which functions should be exempt from furloughs. My guess is they'll come to the same conclusion as the mayor and ifsandbuts.

[nathanm]

So may pages of comments here, maybe I already missed this one.  The issue with the Police furlough, for me (and yes, I'm married to one, but I also live and work in corporate land) is that's fine, give them the furloughs, but that doesn't change the minimum manning levels required.  You put one officer on furlough, then you call another officer in and pay him overtime because you don't have enough officers to safely work.  It is already happening everyday, you require officers to take time off, it will only get worse.  I think there a million fixes to improve the department, but furlough for officers will not save the City a dime and I would bet a joe momma's pizza (which I had for the first time last night) it will actually cost the city more money than they are paying now

I think this is an important point that should be investigated thoroughly by those in charge before deciding to furlough officers.

[patric]

Is this right, furloughed police making $30/hour moonlighting?

From kotv:
After spending more than a decade heading Tulsa County's SWAT team, Travis Cartner, along with his wife, founded a private security firm two years ago. Anvis Resources provides security for apartments, businesses, and neighborhoods.
"Our door is open, they can come and apply with us, and we can put them to work," Angela Cartner said.
Moonlighting can be pretty lucrative for police. Anvis says it pays its officers as much as 30 dollars an hour.

[Conan71]

Is this right, furloughed police making $30/hour moonlighting?

From kotv:
After spending more than a decade heading Tulsa County's SWAT team, Travis Cartner, along with his wife, founded a private security firm two years ago. Anvis Resources provides security for apartments, businesses, and neighborhoods.
"Our door is open, they can come and apply with us, and we can put them to work," Angela Cartner said.
Moonlighting can be pretty lucrative for police. Anvis says it pays its officers as much as 30 dollars an hour.

If they can get it, pay taxes on it, and it's not on the taxpayer's dime, why would anyone care?  Firefighters and police officers moonlighting in Tulsa isn't any sort of new revelation.