Another Police Helicopter

[dbacksfan 2.0]

How is the Army turning off a transponder for a training flight a "conspiracy theory," when TPD turns them off for almost every flight?

From your earlier post on the regulations:

The purpose of the rule is to allow law
enforcement and other security agencies
to take appropriate measures to protect
operational security and the safety of
their operators. The FAA expects that
each agency will establish its own
policies and conduct its own assessment
to determine whether the mission
should be excepted from the
transmitting requirement. Because this
relief is being granted to support
sensitive security operations, however,
the FAA anticipates that non-
transmission of ADS–B Out will not be
routinely used by agencies that have
been granted this relief.

If TPD is constantly flying without supplying ADS-B Out or transponder info then the authorization to fly should be yanked. But I have yet to see any proof other than not showing up on Flight Aware or Flight Radar 24. Even searching specifically for TPD doing this there is nothing out there. If this is true why has someone not notified the FAA?

Granted that there are times you could fly a 737 at 1500 feet AGL for hours on end doing laps around Tulsa and not interfere with anything other than noise levels.

Back to the point, I have yet to see any proof that TPD is operating dark all the time other than your claims.

As to Thomas's claims that it possibly could have been a covert black ops training mission, I think that is an absurd idea to fly a helicopter around the end of the runway at night at one of the busiest airports in the country. The Army, Navy and Air Force have plenty of areas with restricted airspace to do that kind of training.

[dbacksfan 2.0]

There's some talk about it [the helicopter] being flown remotely from as far away as 300 miles being previewed in DC a couple of months earlier.

Care to provide a link to a valid source?

[patric]

If TPD is constantly flying without supplying ADS-B Out or transponder info then the authorization to fly should be yanked. But I have yet to see any proof other than not showing up on Flight Aware or Flight Radar 24. Even searching specifically for TPD doing this there is nothing out there.

Is there another plausible explanation for their transponder not showing up consistently? 

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Is there another plausible explanation for their transponder not showing up consistently? 

Not being an A&P mechanic all I can do is guess that they manually turn it on and off or that there is an electrical issue which I would think would ground the copter until it's fixed.

If you think they are misusing or abusing  the exemption that let's them turn it off temporarily, call the FAA field office at TIA, the number is available on Google.

[Red Arrow]

Is there another plausible explanation for their transponder not showing up consistently?

Of course there is. I have had Tulsa Approach occasionally not see my transponder even though it is on and operating properly. Doesn't happen very often though.

May be possible due to low altitudes.  But that is speculation on my part.

[Red Arrow]

I think the professional answer was provided by the NTSB.....let's wait until the facts are in.  It may be fun to speculate but that's all speculation is.  I am particularly offended by El Presidente Trump's response for probable causes.

[Red Arrow]

You can be sure that general aviation will be required to add avionics costing more than the total value of the aircraft even though they will never fly in the kind of airspace near DC.

[Red Arrow]

One more thing (Please pardon the Detective Colombo reference), the military has transponder modes that civilian transponders do not have.  (Ex USN Avionics Tech speaking).  I don't know if the civilian towers have access to those modes, nor do I remember the information transmitted. It's been quite a few years.
 

[whoatown]

Is there another plausible explanation for their transponder not showing up consistently? 

There are some flights watched on one of the flight tracking sites that leave an inconsistent trail.  This could be problems with the ads-b equipment on board or lack of feeders in an area.  Starting with mode S, they wanted transponders that couldn't be turned off at the transponder.  It just added icao identifier instead of just a squak code. Of course, ads-b came later and still isn't a reliable replacement for radar.  But if you're saying they are going dark, maybe they are just deliberately pulling the breaker.  They didn't really want to give leos the ability to go dark with drones either except in certain cases.

[whoatown]

One more thing (Please pardon the Detective Colombo reference), the military has transponder modes that civilian transponders do not have.  (Ex USN Avionics Tech speaking).  I don't know if the civilian towers have access to those modes, nor do I remember the information transmitted. It's been quite a few years.
 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GVH40yR6CDc

[whoatown]

The leos met the guy that does the king training videos at gunpoint one time when he was transponder off in an area where it wasn't required.  (Post 9/11)

[whoatown]

Care to provide a link to a valid source?

https://defensescoop.com/2025/01/30/army-helicopter-black-hawk-fatal-crash-potomac-not-using-ai-sources-say/

Would be implemented with defense contractor lockheed martin. 

[Hoss]

It's funny.  Last week people were were experts on how tariffs work; now they're experts on air safety.  🤷

[patric]

WASHINGTON, Feb 6 (Reuters) - A key safety system was turned off on a U.S. Army helicopter that collided with an American Airlines (AAL.O) regional jet last week near Washington Reagan Airport, killing 67.Senate Commerce Committee chair Ted Cruz told reporters the Black Hawk helicopter had turned off its automatic dependent surveillance-broadcast (ADS-B), which is permitted for military aircraft.
"This was a training mission, so there was no compelling national security reason for ADS-B to be turned off," Cruz said after a briefing from the National Transportation Safety Board and Federal Aviation Administration.

In the deadliest U.S. air disaster in more than 20 years, the aircraft collided last week, with both aircraft plunging into the Potomac River. The helicopter was flying about 100 feet over the maximum allowed for that route, the NTSB said earlier.
ADS-B is an advanced surveillance technology to track aircraft location. Cruz noted the helicopter had a transponder so it would appear on radar but ADS-B is significantly more accurate.
Last week, Senator Maria Cantwell, the top Democrat on the committee, questioned why the FAA since 2018 has allowed military flights to fly with their installed ADS-B equipment off.
Cruz also said he had asked the FAA to conduct a review of helicopter routes near other congested airports.

https://www.reuters.com/world/us/key-safety-system-off-army-helicopter-that-collided-with-american-airlines-jet-2025-02-06/

[dbacksfan 2.0]

Interesting, this was pushed forward by a Navy pilot, Arizona Senator John McCain. So this was tucked into a bigger defense spending bill that was signed into law, HR 5515.

https://www.congress.gov/bill/115th-congress/house-bill/5515/text

The FAA's action follows congressional direction included in the John S. McCain National Defense Authorization Act for Fiscal Year 2019, which prevents the Department of Transportation from requiring the installation of ADS-B equipment on Department of Defense (DoD) aircraft, including fighters, bombers or other special mission aircraft. In the legislation, Congress also mandated the continued provision of air traffic services and continued access for DoD aircraft not equipped with ADS-B.

"We appreciate the special needs of the U.S. military and their support aircraft in conducting sensitive operations that require additional privacy and security considerations," said Doug Carr, NBAA vice president for regulatory and international affairs. "It's important for NBAA members to know that aircraft affected by this interim final rule will retain an alternate transponder capability, ensuring that aircraft safety systems, such as TCAS, will continue to function properly," Carr continued.

https://nbaa.org/aircraft-operations/communications-navigation-surveillance-cns/ads-b/faa-permits-ads-b-off-military-sensitive-flights/